355 replies to this topic

[Dr Terry]

There's isn' too much in there to disagree with, except that the 308 was first seen in the HT Brougham in June 69 (not Dec 69).

 

You're agreeing with me that HDT ran the HT HTS350 in Series Prod up to mid-70 when the Torana replaced it. They never ran an HG GTS 350.

 

Beechey was running in Improved Touring (as you correctly say) & this had nothing to do with HDT or GT HOs in Series Prod.

 

I'm not sure on the exact date that Harry joined up with GM-H, but i spoke to him on that subject many years ago & he said that when he arrived the Sandown cars were ready to roll & it was too late to change anything major on them apart from minor tuning & set-up. By the time of the Bathurst race he had his own engines in the cars & had hired the drivers that he wanted. As I understand it the "rally only' stance for Harry was more of a front for Detroit. I believe he was working on the HT Series Prod cars from Day 1.

 

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

308 won Bathurst eight times.

304 won three times at least. What year did the Holden V8 cease being used? Was the 1993 Perkins car still a 304?

I think that the 304 V8 won Bathurst 4 or maybe 5 times.

 

1986 - Grice

1987 - Brock

1990 - Percy/Grice

1993 - Perkins

1995 - Perkins (not sure if Holden or SBC by then.)

 

Dr Terry

[Kirk]

From memory there was 606 LE coupes built.They sold 580 and lost the rest in a fire 

 

 

[yel327]

Not quite but close. Probably closer to 590-600 with the number lost in the WA fire bringing the amount warranted down to 580.

[Dr Terry]

Yes its something that I hadn't heard, but being 1969 its not hard to get your timing and history mixed up. That's why books of the time can help clarity. I just don't think arguing about a day here or a day there is worth all the grief. But I do think its good to tap into all the sources and try to keep some for of balance.

 

Now what you say about the 308 only being available in the Brougham is interesting and might fit as it never raced so was not part of the source material or relevance. It is strange we had HT GTS 253 Monaro's but the 308's where limited to Broughams??

 

It is in the Official Holden Racing History Book (Stuart Wilson) where several times it is repeated about them racing HT GTS 253 in Rallys and Rallycross and was being used by the likes of Bond,Roberts and Hope and that they didn't used the 308 as it was only available right towards the latter part of of the HT's run. It was targeted more for the July release of the HG.

 

Its pretty detailed and well researched book with race by race results for Holden from 1953 -1988 printed by the Chevron group.

 

In the above jpg's from the book you can see where they rally the 253cu in the HT, so as we know no physical difference between 253 and 308. (maybe 0.5kg) and 350cu is heavier so why would they have had 253cu and not 308cu in HT Monaro is interesting and saved it for the HG which didn't race. So reality was from 1969 HT - 1974 LH the 308 never raced.

When the HT Monaro GTSs first came out (June 69, not May as per sedans & wagons) the only 2 V8 combinations available (if you didn't want a 350) was the 253 Saginaw & 307 Powerglide. The rally boys probably figured the the better balance of the lighter engined car would be better for rallying, than a 307 auto, maybe even compared to the more powerful 350.

 

I seem to remember Tony Roberts rallying an HK 307 Powerglide Kingswood in 1968, so anything went in those days.

 

The 308 was limited to the Brougham only until excess stocks of 307 V8s were exhausted. When the 308 came out for all other HTs, (Oct/Nov) it was an easy choice, 308 power, but no more weight than a 253. HDT probably didn't race or rally an HT 308 GTS, but I'm certain several privateers did rally them. 

 

My other recollection of advertising in late 69 was that the 308 was promoted as the "in between V8", obviously a reference to it being size, power & money-wise in between the 253 & the 350.

 

Dr Terry

[RallyRed]

bit off the topic, but what ""Holden V8 äre they referring to in Feb '68?

Attached Files

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[Dr Terry]

The only one around was the 307 SBC. I don't remember the article, but I'm guessing it would involve using off the shelf US hot up gear to improve your 307.

 

Dr Terry

[yel327]

That SLR5000 was in May 1974 (release) and proved to deliver the best numbers.

 

That isn't correct. The release SLR5000 still had the old lower perfrormance HQ 308. The LH Torana got the good HJ engine when HJ was released but it still had restrictive mufflers. It wasn't until LX release that it got a decent exhaust stsyem and this car is the highest performance 308 Torana (excluding L34) in either XU2/SLR5000 or SS with optional L31. The higher performnce 308 introduced with HJ was one of the reasons the smog choked 400 SBC was dropped from HJ. 

[RallyRed]

Thanks Dr T....

I'm not up the specifics, but for a mag to be writing about the Holden V8 in a Feb 68 edition ( assume the mag. was in the shops the in Jan 68 )??
- as they normally come out a month post dated so look new when actually on the shelves,then it may have been penned in 12/67 or early 1/68?
what Holden would it have been in?

Were HKs around that early?

[Dr Terry]

Thanks Dr T....

I'm not up the specifics, but for a mag to be writing about the Holden V8 in a Feb 68 edition ( assume the mag. was in the shops the in Jan 68 )??
- as they normally come out a month post dated so look new when actually on the shelves,then it may have been penned in 12/67 or early 1/68?
what Holden would it have been in?

Were HKs around that early?

Yes, it seems very early to be writing an article about more than doubling the hp on a car that has just hit the streets. The HK (sedan & wagons only) was announced on 28 Jan 1968 & was in the showrooms the next day.

 

These days journalists get in early with what they call long lead release, where they get to view & test drive the cars (in secret) months ahead of release, so they have enough time to produce & print the magazine, so as its publication date coincides with the unveiling of the car itself. I don't believe that this happened in the 60s. So it is unlikely that many journos actually saw or drove an HK much before this date. It was well known that HKs were going to get the SBC, but from my memory most speculation revolved around the 283.

 

The other thing I remember about motoring mags back then was the cover dates, they were way ahead. I well remember buying say the July edition in the last week of May. Always 5-6 weeks ahead. This was definitely the case with Wheels, Modern Motor & Motor Manual, I'm not sure about Racing Car News.

 

In typical journo fashion, the article itself (450 hp Holden V8) would have been "vapour". My thoughts are that the journo knew that the SBC was coming in the next model, so being from RCN, he went around the pits, probably at Warwick Farm & asked guys that were running SBCs "how much max hp can one of these achieve" ? That & little reading up on the latest from the USA & 'hey presto', a magazine article.

 

Dr Terry

[RallyRed]

ha ha ....you are prob correct.....made for a good cover banner though.
Thanks

[Dr Terry]

LXSS350, Byron is correct about the increase in performance between the HJ 308 & HQ 308, it got higher comp (9.7 up from 9.0) & different cam timing. Anybody who had an interest & drove many of these cars in stock form back in the day would know only too well how much better the HJ went. A pre ADR27A LX Torana SL/R5000 did not have an HQ type 308 in it.

The official specs only show a 10 bhp increase, but it felt like a lot more when driving. It was much more lively & when fitted with the factory dual exhaust it was even more noticeable.

Like most mid-model upgrades the motor mags didn't even realise this same performance increase was seen in the LH in late 74 when it got the same engine. A friend of mine purchased an LH SL/R5000 new in 1975 with an auto transmission, this thing was so quick around town it was ridiculous, beating all comers at the traffic lights. Biggest problem was keeping tyres up to it.

I don't have the specs handy on how much different the LX dual exhaust system was compared to its LH equivalent, but it was different I remember. But in a nutshell the most powerful stock red motor was the HJ type 308 (not counting the limited build L34).

BTW the change in engine specs in the LH SL/R5000 was at engine number HT24413. All of this is well documented, it gets a good mention in my book too, have you read that section ?

Dr Terry

[yel327]

The performance increase in the HJ 308 was one of the major factors in the 400ci SBC being dropped from HJ, I even have a transmittal from the Engineering Department for the removal of the 400 from upcoming HJ dated 10/12/73. I think you'll find a stock US spec 400 SBC in a HJ would have been outdone by a HJ 308, I think the 400 was only rated at around 255bhp in 1971 (same type of rating as GMH used) and dropped to 170hp in 1972 (using the "as installed" ratings like I think were used fir blue GMH engines). Compression was down below 9:1. The only place the 400 may have been better would have been in a commercial vehicle when backed by a TH400 in towing situations, the 308's lack of torque rears its head in that situation.  

[yel327]

Shame that some of those wilder HQ colours didn't make it into 1974 or we would have seen Sandmans in colours like strike me pink. The wildest were orchid, saffron and chrome yellow! However I do have a 10/73 HQ V8 4spd van recorded in Purr Pull. I doubt a 400 would have been optional on a HJ Sandman though, it'd only have been standard on Caprice and possibly GTS. Only other models you'd have been able to option it may have been LS and Deville.

[Indy Orange]

Agree with you there yel327,the colours were not really that exciting for the HJ series in my opinion.

[yel327]

I was talking about HQ Sandman, the 1974 colour choice was boring compared to earlier HQ. HJ is blander again.