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202 Build and Planning,

Started by _Macca97_ , Sep 22 2014 03:29 PM

Budget Ideas

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30 replies to this topic

#1 _Macca97_

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 03:29 PM

I think its come to the time i need to get a hotter 6 in my hj, the stocker just doesnt like my P plater foot, and economy isnt to good either, so its time to build a 202, i need tips and tricks and ideas, parts to use and parts to steer clear of all the help i can get will be greatly appreciated.

it will most likely be a red block as ive got a fair few i do have a few blue blocks aswell.

with blue/starfire rods.

pistons will be flat top no idea what kind.

will give it a go at balancing things to make everything the same weight. or close to

the head will most likely be a 9 port with v6 commy valves that ive already started on, its a small combustion chamber, or if a 12port is better let me know.

will run a nice hydraulic cam (no idea what brand), that will be streetable but with abit of a rough idle and not to bad on the fuel, will always run atleast 95 octane.

will run electronic iginiton

valve springs, rocker gear, flywheel weight, are a grey area for me, ive thought about the beehive springs from a vs v6 but they might be wrong spring rate and size.

ive probably been reading way to much, any gain by deburring the block?

will open up oil gallerys in places that it needs it,

exhaust will be genie extractors 1 1/5 and 2 1/4 system already fitted, intake im still unsure, either standard manifold and strommy, and a cain 2barrel manifold with a WW or weber off a falcon, or if funds permit it ill try and find a set of triple SU's, and if they all fail, ill build/ or EFI system from a VK or ill run a VN system, as theres a few cars sitting up the back.

Ive read oldjohnos website a few times just trying to take everything in and not trying to think to far ahead,

im open to ideas and opinions, and if ive missed anything you would like to no to help me, please ask/tell

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#2 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 04:39 PM

Step 1 - set a budget.

Everything else will follow on from that.

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#3 RallyRed

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 05:42 PM

Step 2-
Down lôad the "Building a Hot Holden 6"" booklet, written by the bloke above^^.
Miles of info relevant to your post in that info mate.

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#4 yel327

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 06:20 PM

Step 3. Think: "will I want a V8 in the end". If the answer is yes then wait until you can drive a V8 and save your money. Otherwise proceed to the next step!

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#5 _Macca97_

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 06:49 PM

step 1, well the budget is, do everything i can myself and get everything as cheap as possible.

step 2, doing that now

step 3, i could put a v8 in it now, but insurance will go through the roof, and ill have to change the whole driveline, which is more money, so thats why im chosing to hot a 6 up,

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#6 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 06:59 PM

Change the whole driveline?

A hot six will break anything a mild v8 will....

I see budgets as two fold, A how much you have to spend, and B how long you want to build it for....

Personally with my stuff i prefer to prolong the build so i have more money to spend.....10k over a few years is doable for me, 10k upfront is not.

To put your budget somewhere into perspective, depending on what you actually want, look at spending 7-10k for something fairly hot but still slightly streetable.

A mild streeter that will be a damb site quicker than your current stocker, make as much power as a stock/very mild 308, be nice and reliable, and easy to drive your probably looking at more around the 4-6 mark.

Obviously you can bang something together for like $1500 with carefull purchasing, but its unlikely to be either very reliable or very good.

Cheers.

Edited by Bomber Watson, 22 September 2014 - 07:00 PM.

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#7 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:42 PM

step 1, well the budget is, do everything i can myself and get everything as cheap as possible.

The budget has to be a number, not a vague intention. You could do everything yourself and get everything cheap but still spend 20k. So work out how much you're prepared to spend, it'll make the rest of the exercise 100 times easier - most of the decisions will be made for you by the budget figure.

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#8 _ljxu1torana_

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:22 PM

step 4 big performance done propally turbo charging.

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#9 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:41 PM

And if you want to get anywhere ignore everything that mong says ^

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#10 _Macca97_

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 04:34 PM

budget will be around $2000-$3000, i know its not much, but ill be able to get all the machining done for next to nothing, money will just go to new stuff that is a must, bearings,pistons, head gear, cam and lifters, springs,

got a great family friend who is the local engine builder, and has built alot of hot 6's and has a collection bigger of holden 6 stuff than Dj so he will be some guidance,

but i cant ask him everything.

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#11 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 07:12 AM

budget will be around $2000-$3000, i know its not much, but ill be able to get all the machining done for next to nothing, money will just go to new stuff that is a must, bearings,pistons, head gear, cam and lifters, springs,

got a great family friend who is the local engine builder, and has built alot of hot 6's and has a collection bigger of holden 6 stuff than Dj so he will be some guidance,

but i cant ask him everything.

Cool. Next step is to go through what you have to see what's usable and what's not, and how much machine work is needed. Use the crank and rods from one of your blue engines. I wouldn't even bother changing rod bolts if the rods check out ok, nor would I worry about balancing. A complete blue or black is a cheap way of getting a good crank, rods and dissy in one go. The black heads are also pretty good after a quick touch-up of the short turns. See if you have a usable oil pump and flywheel.

Then add up all the bits required to complete your shortblock: bearings, gaskets, machining to bore and deck the block and grind the crank if needed, pistons (flat top hypereutectic with thin rings), powerbond balancer, cam and lifters (a 619 Crow perhaps, if it has to be hyd.), water pump, dissy cap + plugs and leads.

Once you've got the shortblock priced up you'll know how much you'll have left over for the head and induction, and this figure will determine your options there.

Also keep an eye out for a complete used engine with all the work already done - sometimes these pop up on ebay or gumtree for less than what it would cost to build yourself.

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#12 _Lazarus_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 09:26 AM

What is the difference between blue and black heads ?

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#13 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 11:30 AM

Subtle differences between the valves and port floors. Hard to see but a measurable improvement.

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#14 _Lazarus_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 11:39 AM

Ok thanks. I have one of each.

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#15 _Macca97_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 06:40 PM

spose i should also mention its in my HJ ute, is my daily, running a 4 speed and 3:55 banjo, thinking about putting a 3:08 ratio in it though.

would like to stay with a hyd cam for the quieter running,

so really just put blue internals in a one of my red blocks, what pistons would be best suited as in brand wise, got a fair few oil pumps and flywheels lying around, and a few dizzys.

would it be worth while spinning a flywheel up on the lathe and taking some meat off it, or putting it in the mill and really taking some out?

heres some pics of my 9 port ive started moding ages ago, V6 valves, and just a gasket match port job, still more to go on it,

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#16 EunUCh

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 07:07 PM

If you have a budget that you specify as money available and just want a bit more according to the budget it can easily get like our budget "leaders" expectations

and end up with?.forget the too much "glossy magazine syndrome" and do things as per what "the fella at the pie shop" recons is a good thing for the budget you have set.It will always "blow out a bit' but....induction(carbs) will be the key..SU's would be the easy way out...probably with surprising results.

My 2 cents worth

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#17 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 08:31 PM

spose i should also mention its in my HJ ute, is my daily, running a 4 speed and 3:55 banjo, thinking about putting a 3:08 ratio in it though.

would like to stay with a hyd cam for the quieter running,

so really just put blue internals in a one of my red blocks, what pistons would be best suited as in brand wise, got a fair few oil pumps and flywheels lying around, and a few dizzys.

would it be worth while spinning a flywheel up on the lathe and taking some meat off it, or putting it in the mill and really taking some out?

heres some pics of my 9 port ive started moding ages ago, V6 valves, and just a gasket match port job, still more to go on it,.

A few comments. I think a 3.55 would be a good match, or even a bit shorter. Don't worry that it will be spinning too fast on the highway, it'll be right in its comfort zone. I much prefer solid cams (you really can't hear a modern tight lash cam) but if you use hyd. it might save you having to buy rocker gear. Definitely don't touch the flywheel, the blue is a bit lighter than red but either is ok as is. Make sure it's tightly dowelled though. If you use a blue crank in a red block remember you need matching seal types.

As for the head it's critical that you know what you're doing or you could end up spending time and money for little improvement. As with most heads the important bits are the seats and the areas directly above and below them. The gasket face doesn't really matter, get professional advice if necessary. A flow test just to verify it is nice too.

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#18 _ljxu1torana_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 08:42 PM

And if you want to get anywhere ignore everything that mong says ^

if anyone listens to you there car will never start.you are the biggest peanut butter jabber that god ever put breath into.you have no knoweledge of cars.i have seen your buckets of shit and it would be so embarrising even taken pictures of them.so dont give out any advice that you know sweet frOck all about.

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#19 _Macca97_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 10:46 PM

god its hard to tell if you boys are being sarcastic or serious, but to save a keyboard war im taking it as sarcasm.

ill leave the diff alone than. ill mostly run a red flywheel as I've got clutches to suit, i just would of thought a little bit less rotating weight on the flywheel end would help send the harmonics up to the balancer, thats a reason why id stay with a hydraulic cam, im sure the standard rockers would be ok, just put better springs, but ill got the short block sorted and than find out what funds i have yet, might be able to run a solid, just have to wait.

i wont be building it in a month or 2 might take me 6months or more,

with the head, dads got a fair bit of experience with porting from his speedway days, and im very couscous in what i do to it. it hasnt cost me anything so far, just about 4hrs of time

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#20 _Macca97_

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 10:50 PM

it wont be perfect, especially without a flowbench

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#21 Dave6179

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 03:35 PM

I'm using a 3.55 diff in my HJ too (on 14s). The 179 loved the 3.9 but the 202 hated it. I have a VN BW diff I need to pull out and have my brackets welded to it, and VL 3.45 gears. The 3.55 seems almost too low even with the Supra box. Feels like it has HEAPS left, might even chuck the spare 3.36 in it to check.

And after adding the CDI it pulls real well from 140 up!

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#22 _Macca97_

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:02 PM

well, been thinking for a LONG time, im going to keep the ute a SIX as there isn't many left that still have them in it, now have a YT STG 3 head thats small chamber so will use that, will run red block with just blue rods, pistons no idea, engine builder has a little 31/71 (around that, cant remember exact numbers) heatseaker cam that'll ill run, hopefully comp wont be through the roof, and just run a standard strommy till I get something else, or ill just leave the motor on the stand till I can get a decent carby/carbies

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#23 _duggan208_

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:53 PM

I think the closed chamber head on a 186/202 is around 10.1.

Regards

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#24 warrenm

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:15 AM

I think the closed chamber head on a 186/202 is around 10.1.

Regards

Which should work well with the cam that Macca97 has mentioned. You might find that a std Stromberg may be a bit of a "handbrake"

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#25 _Macca97_

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 05:44 PM

I was thinking around that Jon , to make sure the head will be cc'd,

arnt the std strommys a handbrake on a stock 149? hahah

question, I no its really up to the engine builder but should I just bore it 60" over or try and go something around 30" or 40" over if i can, to keep the bores thicker and maybe so i can build the motor again,