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#26 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 11:04 AM

Think about this: at 7000rpms the circumference of a 6" diameter crankshaft will be travelling at around 120mph.

 

We all know that an object with tapered leading and trailing edges - like a wing or a ships hull - travelling at that speed will have less drag than a blunt, block shaped object. It makes sense; a smooth tapered shape will disrupt the surrounding fluid much less and cause much less turbulence and therefore create much less drag.

 

But we also know that the above applies only if the surrounding fluid is fairly calm and the relative flow past the object is largely laminar. If the flow is already turbulent then pretty much all the advantages of an aerodynamic shape go out the window.

 

How would you describe the air that immediately surrounds a crank and rods thrashing at 7000rpm, with pistons pumping the crankcase air at the same rate? A picture of tranquillity?

 

Now, I'm well aware that there are good gains to be had from keeping the oil away from the crank. I just can't see slicking up the crank cheeks achieving much. I think you'd gain much more with crankcase vacuum - not only would you manage the oil wrap problem but you'd also reduce the air drag. And without all the filthy work involved in shaping a cast iron crankshaft.

 

Ok theres no doubting that all this theory makes sense but how do you deal with the fact that an identical lightweight crank /balancer engine will out acelerate and be more responsive than a heavy crank engine .Ive built both and seen it for myself over and over in street cars and racing . The amount that is removed and where it is removed has come about from hard work and testing.

Im not about to tell people what to do but the facts speak for themselves .



#27 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 01:18 PM

Ok theres no doubting that all this theory makes sense but how do you deal with the fact that an identical lightweight crank /balancer engine will out acelerate and be more responsive than a heavy crank engine .Ive built both and seen it for myself over and over in street cars and racing . The amount that is removed and where it is removed has come about from hard work and testing.

Im not about to tell people what to do but the facts speak for themselves .

 

Fair enough Mick, and I'm not gonna try to argue against results with theory. Actually I don't disagree at all that reducing the weight of the rotating assembly speeds up response and acceleration. The point I was trying to make was is that I can't see shaping the cheeks doing much for aero drag - I'm not arguing the effects of reduced mass at all.



#28 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 01:46 PM

Fair enough Mick, and I'm not gonna try to argue against results with theory. Actually I don't disagree at all that reducing the weight of the rotating assembly speeds up response and acceleration. The point I was trying to make was is that I can't see shaping the cheeks doing much for aero drag - I'm not arguing the effects of reduced mass at all.

 

Ok cool  we're on the same page with the weight , the shape of the weights probably has little to do with the results . The knifedge shape just comes from the most cost effective process used to  lighten the crank which is in a lathe .

 

The additional hp derived frim less crank windage comes from theory rather than fact untill one of us fits a sump window to a holden six to see what is going on .As you said before Johnno i think the air inside the engine around the rotating assembly will be an absolute mess  and we fit windage trays and scrapers because we assume it is helping .

 

Getting back to theory i did a engine theory course run by a bloke named David Vizard in Sydney years ago .He said he fitted a sump window to a chev sb engine and at high rpm without a windage tray the oil stayed around the rotating assembly as one mass . So assuming the 202 acts the same then a windage tray and crank scraper will be useful in keeping the oil in the pan where u need it . The shape of the counterweights can only help,but wont hurt .

 

A penny for your thoughts .



#29 EunUCh

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 03:18 PM

"

Attached File  oc.JPG   170.34K   1 downloads

"

 

Smokey Yunick.

 

Interesting.

 

 



#30 warrenm

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:52 PM

Smokey Yunick is were I got the idea of shaping the counter weights.:)



#31 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 07:30 PM

Not sure they're worth a penny but here goes anyway...

 

One of the problems with any discussion on "downstairs" losses is that quite a few factors tend to get lumped under the heading of "windage" when in fact windage is only one factor. Others would include oil wrap, oil stack and bay-to-bay pumping losses.

 

The OEMs have worked with these issues for many years - Chrysler filmed the effect and quantified the losses and later Jenkins filmed it as well. I'm sure many of the other manufacturers would have done the same thing and I'm guessing that's where Smokey would have seen it. In more recent years Porsche were forced to do a lot of work to solve some weird oil control issues with the 928. It was also recognized as a problem in some earlier GP bikes.

 

The oil wrap phenomenon seems to be the biggest problem associated with windage and causes the most power loss. Something to keep in mind is that it doesn't seem to become a problem until a certain rpm level is reached. Most US builders seem to think it isn't worth worrying about with a typical small block below about 8k. The rapidly spinning crank creates a zone of low air pressure around the crank and the higher pressure surrounding this tends to hold the oil around the crank. The most common solutions are close fitting scrapers and mesh screen to strip the oil and hopefully return it to the pan before it gets picked up again in the spinning cloud.

 

There's not much you can do about the oil from the crank bearings but anything you can do to keep the oil draining back from the cam and valvetrain away from the crank will help. And seeing as the problem is caused by the moving air simply pumping out most of the air (either with scavenge sections or a vacuum pump) will help greatly. This seems to be the most effective and popular option currently. I'm not sure how much power loss can be attributed to the windage itself but I suspect it isn't much. The main problem with windage seems to be its tendency to cause oil wrap, and this is what saps power. 

 

I'm not convinced that there is any advantage to any sort of "aero" treatment. NHRA Pro Stock engines - 500cu in, 10500rpm and around 3hp/cube NA - are currently being built with a variety of web shapes (including no shaping) and no particular type seems to have an edge. I think if these guys can't find one it either doesn't exist or is too small to matter. At any rate I certainly wouldn't spend any time on aero with a 7500rpm Holden six.

 

Like everything, crank design is a trade-off, in this case against weight. The slickest design would be full circle crank webs but of course these would simply be too heavy and would require lots of heavy metal for balancing, making it even heavier. It's interesting that crank induced turbulence can be a problem with two strokes as well, and that Honda are encasing their crankwheels in tin covers while Yamaha are using aerodynamically clean plastic packers. In my own tests I found that using pork-chop crankwheels (to increase crankcase volume) worked well up to about 8500 where it hit a brick wall, presumably because of turbulence disturbing the transfer flow. Reverting to full circle wheels surrounded by "egg rings" (and increasing the case volume elsewhere) restored the high rpm power plus a bit more. I've since wondered whether the same approach would work with a 4 stroke car engine to keep the oil off the crank - maybe the rings surrounding the webs could be retained by main cap bolts?

 

The second highest downstairs power losses come from the pistons pumping the crankcase air around, and these losses can be surprisingly high. One solution used on inline fours is to pair 1,2 and 3,4 together, with a divider between 2 and 3. With the paired cylinders being 180 degrees apart the air is simply shuffled back and forth between them. Other engines have large openings in the main webs to ease air flow but the ultimate solution used on some high end engines is to totally isolate each cylinder from its neighbour, like a two stroke multi. This eliminates pumping losses altogether as the air under each cylinder is simply compressed and expanded repeatedly. The Japanese OEMS have done some nice work in this area lately, especially with the exceptionally high revving bike engines.

 

If you've made it this far in you've probably noticed that all the above problems can be alleviated simply by keeping the oil away from the crank as much as possible, and evacuating as much air from the crankcase as possible. In wet sump drag engines a vacuum pump does the job while everything else uses the dry sump scavenge stages to evacuate the air. Do these two things and you can forget about all the other half-arsed solutions altogether.

 

Weight of the rotating assembly is a different subject altogether, with the general rule of thumb being the lighter the better. Possible exceptions would be low powered vehicles with plenty of traction, and anywhere where the lack of mass causes other problems, torsional vibration for example. And I have to say I find street cars with too-light crank weights to be obnoxious to live with day-to-day. But generally lighter=faster.



#32 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 07:46 PM

Cool thread.

Excellent discussion.

#33 N/A-PWR

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 07:56 PM

Beautiful Work, Oldjohnno, thank-you.  :3gears:



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#34 RallyRed

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:08 PM

wow...nice info there O.J.....not sure I fully understand all of it...but happy to re read and try and digest properly. 

Thanks



#35 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:33 PM

Not sure they're worth a penny but here goes anyway...

 

Yep I think youve covered it Johnno .

I hate typing.

 

Found some David Vizard test results on SBC engines .This oil wrap or  'egg beater ' effect as he calls it hapens from 6500 rpm on a dyno and can happen on any engine which makes sense . Test results showed that an increase of as much as 10 hp can be found by just lowerin the oil level to the low mark on the dipstick on the dyno which proves that this effect is the cause of the power loss and not the aero effect .( do not try this at home)

 

The ideal way to stop this is to build a dry sump system but not really a practical solution in our applications so machining the counterweights to a consistent shape and fitting scrapers ,windage tray and a 3'4" hose from the rocker cover to an entry point below the windage tray looks like the way to go .


Edited by STRAIGHTLINEMICK, 28 June 2015 - 08:38 PM.


#36 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:37 PM

Photo explanations of pork chop and egg rings would be helpfull haha. 



#37 EunUCh

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:42 PM

I think what is being explained is ?  is that whatever happens in terms of "oil cloud" is that by "confusing" whatever happens "down there" be it detrimental or not as it seems to play a role is to 'isolate' the cloud as much as possible within the case/sump.

eg...V6 Buick eng, where the crank is pretty well "hidden" from the pan as well as having some sort of sump that helps out a bit,as Oldjonno said...they have looked at this stuff for a while now.

 

Buick set up, nothing like the 6 or 8 Holden made ? "isolation" between throws and a pan to suit ?

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Edited by EunUCh, 28 June 2015 - 08:42 PM.


#38 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:44 PM

Photo explanations of pork chop and egg rings would be helpfull haha. 

 

Stop drooling over the keyboard Bomber...



#39 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 09:16 PM

Weight of the rotating assembly is a different subject altogether, with the general rule of thumb being the lighter the better. Possible exceptions would be low powered vehicles with plenty of traction, and anywhere where the lack of mass causes other problems, torsional vibration for example. And I have to say I find street cars with too-light crank weights to be obnoxious to live with day-to-day. But generally lighter=faster.

 

Yep i agree too light can be a problem but to put things in perspective I forgot to mention that the knifedged 12 counterweight crank is still a little heavier than a red motor crank .

 

 

Out of interest one crank had all its counterweights removed just to prove a point ,It revved up like a 1200cc bike ,had violent response but broke the block ,you could say that the lower weight limit had been found .


Edited by STRAIGHTLINEMICK, 28 June 2015 - 09:25 PM.


#40 N/A-PWR

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 09:20 PM

Great Information Mick,

 

Good to know about the comparisons.  :spoton:



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#41 nzxu1

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 03:21 PM

From my own  limited  experiences and assumptions  it would all depend on what you are  using the engine for  .  If you are using the engine mainly  for towing your caravan or boat  then you are wanting torque which a heavy crank will help provide  . But if you are building a say out and out race engine  then the crank should be as light as possible within reason  for faster engine acceleration . To me  , lightening the crankshaft  has  the same effect  as lightening the flywheel .............the reciprocating mass is less so it will accelerate faster .

 A number of years ago l bought a lightened and knife edged crank off  Ray Brough in Tasmania . When l got it back here to NZ  l was interested to compare it's weight  to a standard  blue/black fully counterweighted crankshaft  .  The standard crankshaft weighed  APPROX  28kgs  where as  Rays crank  weighed  APPROX   22 kg's ...........6kg's  has just got to make a difference .



#42 EunUCh

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:21 PM

Just going to repeat a bit of pub talk between a mate and i !

 

He gave the illustration that ....tie a brick to a piece of string or rope and hold onto it,now with the string tight try and get that brick 

into motion as fast as possible by spinning around in a circle and get it up to speed and let the string go.

 

Now tie a marble to the piece of string and get up to the same speed as the brick and let it go.

 

Obviously  with the marble it will get up speed quicker but probably won't travel as far as the brick when let go?

 

Even though it took more energy to get the brick up to speed,it also stored more energy,even though the marble was quick and easy 

to get up to speed,it took less energy therefore stored less energy?

 

Still yet to get my head around how heavy flywheels make more torque?

 

I think it depends on if the flywheel is lightened around the peripheral area or just overall ,that even though  another one of same weight with no peripheral lightening that they might respond differently but may not be noticed,the further the weight gets away from the center driving force,the harder it becomes to get that weight into motion :dontknow:

 

edit....if the brick was a flywheel type illustration of a flywheel when the clutch was let out on a strip then the "off line getaway" would probably be better than something light because it has a shit load of stored energy that would "carry" for a certain period of time but by then the foot is probably into it to keep up the pace ...bit off topic....just for some illustration?..sort of..maybe


Edited by EunUCh, 29 June 2015 - 06:36 PM.


#43 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:35 PM

Heavyer flywheels don't produce more torque per say, they just have more centrifugal motion.

#44 _SLY HR_

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:37 PM

Heavyer flywheels don't produce more torque per say, they just have more centrifugal motion.

 

EunUCh,  the centrifugal force/momentum would be the part your mate was explaining with his brick vs marble theory.

 

Great topic.



#45 EunUCh

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 08:21 PM

Back on topic for a sec. , even though results have been achieved by knife edging,one thing Smokey mentioned was harmonics with a light crank,but that was on SBC

engines , if the same theory applies to an inline six who knows?

If the the "oil cloud" is a problem, then maybe construct a pan that tends to isolate and confuse the some what random travel of the cloud between the throws so that it is kept in some sort of "order" ?

 

Dunno...must be lot's of weird stuff going on down there?

 

lot's to think about....just going on the heavy  flywheel makes torque theory that many mechanics have assured me about?....yeah well...i tend to disagree.. :)



#46 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:04 PM

Heavyer flywheels don't produce more torque per say, they just have more centrifugal motion.

 

The correct term is inertia .This inertia from crank and flywheel mass will want to keep turning and this stored energy once built up by rpm can help a car get off the line when there is a lack of low down torque and lots of traction .Just imagine a holden 202 set up for drag with a 260 @ 50 cam and not much torque below 4500-5000rpm  with a manual trans and slicks . To get this car off the line you would have to build revs to around 4500-5000 and drop or  maybe slip the clutch . the inertia built up from the heavy weight will help the engine hold rpm untill the car has enough speed for the engine to stay on the cam and accelerate not bog down .

But this extra weight is not helpful after the car is moving and a lighter crank will accelerate quicker from then on. The amount of crank/flywheel weight   in this application is a balance between launch and acceleration .I know Ron Harrop made an extra heavy flywheel for his FJ when it had a manual trans .

But for most other applications in street /strip .speedway /circuit racing the lighter crank will be faster .



#47 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:41 PM

Something else to keep in mind - the mass of the rods and pistons behaves in exactly the same way as the rotating mass. In other words heavier pistons and rods have the same effect as a heavier flywheel.



#48 SA EH

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 11:44 PM

Just butting in here...
Great topic & good to hear differing opinions. And here's another...
Let's say you put a lot of hard work, effort & time into knife edging/shaping/turning your crank into a plane and build up a wild combo 202, only to throw a rod or something nasty at 7-8000rpm - because you build an engine that could spin to 9500 didn't you?
Then what?
Do it all again?
Maybe, if you have the time on your hands or the coin to pay someone to do it for you I guess.
I know of it happening recently to a quality engine that had bugger all time on the track. Seems like a lot of effort unless you have a proven combo that dictates you need a knife edged crank, and you've maxed out all other areas of your engine chasing every hp. Pointless on a street engine I'd say.

Then again maybe I'm just jealous coz I didn't do it on my engine...

Cheers

#49 warrenm

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:27 AM

The correct term is inertia .This inertia from crank and flywheel mass will want to keep turning and this stored energy once built up by rpm can help a car get off the line when there is a lack of low down torque and lots of traction .Just imagine a holden 202 set up for drag with a 260 @ 50 cam and not much torque below 4500-5000rpm  with a manual trans and slicks . To get this car off the line you would have to build revs to around 4500-5000 and drop or  maybe slip the clutch . the inertia built up from the heavy weight will help the engine hold rpm untill the car has enough speed for the engine to stay on the cam and accelerate not bog down .

But this extra weight is not helpful after the car is moving and a lighter crank will accelerate quicker from then on. The amount of crank/flywheel weight   in this application is a balance between launch and acceleration .I know Ron Harrop made an extra heavy flywheel for his FJ when it had a manual trans .

But for most other applications in street /strip .speedway /circuit racing the lighter crank will be faster .

The combo you describe here is close to mine, only it's 7000rpm then off the clutch, it would be nice to have a "slipper" clutch.

I believe the flywheel was about 30lbs, a little birdy told me.



#50 LC-GTR-1969

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 07:30 AM

Interesting topic- one which I have had a 'little' experience with...

 

My engine is running a long duration cam, 266@50 thou with a manual box...

 

I have a blue crank and was originally running an aluminium flywheel at only 4.5kg. 

 

This set-up was very lively and made for an extremely snappy engine. At 4000rpm all hell broke loose. Lots of shake rattle and rollin'.

 

Anyway, the car was a pig to drive under about 3500rpm. I simply did not have enough inertia to stop the car from stalling- this was made worse as I have a brass button clutch which is fairly grabby.

 

It did not take to long and the pressure plate bolts loosened themselves and caused all sorts of issues. I imagine this was caused by 1) harmonics and 2) the aluminium material of the flywheel.

 

So I bit the bullet and changed to a YT 8.6kg steel job. My observations are;

- car is much smoother on the cam- seems to smooth out the transition to the cam. 

- I spin the wheels alot (accidentally) at low rpm with the grabby clutch. Where it used to want to stall, the added inertia wants to light up the tyres- care needed when releasing clutch

- Cruising at low throttle is improved

- Engine does not spool up as quick, obviously due to the extra weight.

 

Basically I would not go back to the extremely light flywheel in my street car, but in a circuit car I would consider it. I think the jury is out for drag- many prefer heavy flywheels for better launch, but some swear by the very light assemblies...

 

My car may be a little slower on the cam, but the drivability improvement was well worth the sacrifice. As Mick mentioned, with a long duration cam like 260+ at 50", the engine has very little low down torque. Hence the greater inertia of the heavy flywheel helps create a perception of torque through improved resistance to stall and the engine can hold its own momentum under load, like a hill in a tall gear.

 

Just my 2 c... I know that the conversation was more about crank mass, but I like to think of the whole assembly mass as the issue, crank, rods, pistons, balancer and flywheel... I guess its a balance (pardon the pun) between weights of assembly... I would not hesitate to use a knife edge crank from someone who has plenty of experience in machining them (like Mick), as the weight is still more than a red crank anyway (from memory). Also, I think the whole package has to be considered- cam duration, final gearing, transmission etc etc are important as the light set-up may not suit some packages.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by LC-GTR-1969, 30 June 2015 - 07:38 AM.





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