132 replies to this topic

[axistr]

After building and driving the SLR most weekends over the past six months the hatch hasn't see much daylight. During the SLR build I converted it to a new style clutch master cylinder upgrade, and was so successful that when I went to move the hatch the clutch felt so hard I could hardly push it to the floor.

 

I must be getting a bit soft, so I thought bugger it I will convert it same as the SLR.

 

The SLR has a concentric bearing set up with a smaller and less poundage pressure plate. The hatch has your normal garden variety clutch fork with a Dellows hydraulic master cylinder assembly set up. The Hatch is running around 500hp so the clutch is heavy duty to handle the power transfer.

 

The other reason I wanted to go for an under dash style clutch hydraulic setup, was to do away with the ugly firewall cylinder and gain more room around the booster. If I wanted to get the right rocker cover off it meant me stripping out the system then having to re bleed the hydraulics. took around four hours and a bugger of a job. I have only set the tappets on the right bank once in eight years. 

 

Didn't know how it will work out but no harm in trying. For those that are interested in the upgrade this is how I done it.

 

I purchased a Ford, yes I no its a fraud part, but they do have a good pedal setup. The assembly was out of a BA, I believe BA & FG manuals use the same master cylinder pedal setup assembly. I got this pedal box off ebay for $220. First I removed the clutch peddle assembly from the plastic peddle box. Cut off any unwanted switches and brackets from the steel housing, and screw the too securing bolts back in. I took two shorter 6 mm bolts out of the throttle sensor and used them to bolt the clutch master cylinder back into the steel clutch frame. The bolts stick out a bit but this is what I will use to attach it to the Torana under dash frame. The peddle is a bit to short and not at the right angle so I bent and lengthen it a bit to line up close to the original clutch pedal pad position.

 

More updates soon.

 

 

 

   

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[BIG KEV]

Lenny
I would be interested to know how the new Ford type master cylinder will go with the heavy duty clutch in your hatch
as you know I am at the same point with my build

[axistr]

Kevin I am confident it will work with the correct sizing of the slave to master cylinder ratio.

 

The old master cylinder has a 1" bore and the Ford master cylinder is 7/8". The original size of the slave cylinder is 1 1/16". I calculated (educated guess) and have sent the slave out for sleaving to 15/16". it was starting to leak anyway and the bore was excessively worn so it was a got time to get it done.

 

Finished modifying the pedal, had to add around 85 mm to the length so this will give me even more leverage over the hydraulics.

 

Time to remove the old pedal and master cylinder assembly and trial fit the new peddle. There is a small hole already in the Torana frame that lines up with one of the bolts  which goes through the master cylinder and bracket, I used this hole to start to get my alignment and correct pedal height. then marked and drilled a hole for the second bolt and a hole for the hydraulic clutch line through the fire wall. See photo. Then bolted the assembly up. It was so firm I didn't end up using the front upper support on the Ford bracket so I suppose it also can be removed for more room. I hate working under dashes but I didn't need to remove the column or any other components under there. Its tight but backing off the column bolts I had enough room to slip the peddle assembly in.  

 

I also fitted two nuts to the 6mm bolts to allow the master cylinder to sit flush and square against the Torana frame, this will ensure there isn't any movement or crush on the steel master cylinder frame. Hope that all makes sense. 

 

I made a blanking plate to cover the old hole for the clutch push rod and drilled a hole in the plate for the fluid supply hose. Heaps more room around the right rocker cover and booster now. 

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[axistr]

Got the slave cylinder back which is now sleaved to 15/16" Made up a master cylinder reservoir bracket, bleed the system which was very easy. The wife pumped the pedal a few time while I opened the bleed nipple then she said "it doesn't work what's wrong", the slave cylinder push rod was pushing out around an inch. Bugger ?. Jumped in push the peddle in myself, felt super soft started it and straight into gear Yes

 

Just about had to use both feet to push it in before. It is so light I can push the clutch peddle in with one finger. The peddle take up point is 40% of the distance from the floor which is good as the clutch slowly wears the take up point will come up higher. I could have even sleaved the slave cylinder smaller to 7/8" which would have given me a higher take up point but the peddle would have been a bit harder to push in.

 

The wife said she can drive it now. mmm bugger,

 

What's next for the hatch, thinking about fuel injection so it will be very friendly for Bev to drive. The large cam duration makes it a bit of a bugger to warm up and not fowl a plug. So I hope injection will make it easy for her to start and also get off the mark with out stalling it. 

 

All in all the conversion was a total success. Took me a day of mucking around, but much cheaper than other alternatives.

 

      

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[purrlx]

Very nice

[BIG KEV]

Great work Lenny
So am I right in saying it doesn't matter what size BA slave cylinder we get ....as its possible to get them sleaved to 15/16
And who or where dose this ?

[axistr]

Kevin I spoke to western clutch and they had new clutch master cylinders on the shelf, They said BA,BF,FG all use the same master cylinder.

 

They are a plastic cylinder assembly's and have a bore size of 7/8"  If you are using a internal Tremic style concentric throw out bearing assembly you cannot sleave them they are already matched size to the Henry master cylinders, this is the setup I have in the SLR. The hatch is using an external slave cylinder (Dellows bracket & fork) and this slave is common to early Holden EH,HR and a few others, which come in sizes 1 1/16 1 1/8 1 3/16" from memory. I had to sleave the cylinder down to get the right fluid transfer ratio. Hope this properly explains.

 

Lenny  

[BIG KEV]

I follow what your saying now Lenny ...
You have a old school set up on the hatch which bolts on the out side of the box....Dellow set up
I know Scott from Western Clutch well he has done a bit of work for me in the past and he has designed a clutch kit for my project just need to do the pedal set up .....
Did you have to get any hoses made up to run from the master down to the slave or any fancy connectors ???

[axistr]

Correct, yep Scott & John know there stuff, been using them close on 20 years.

 

I used the original steel connection that inserts into the end of the master cylinder and Hawkesbury made me a new hose which we silver soldered into this fitting. Cost me $35 for the complete hose.

[axistr]

Well the hatch is basically run in now its taken eight years to clock up 11,000 Km, so its about time to really start tuning to its full potential.

 

It has always pumped out a tone of torque, it will pull two foot round stumps out of the ground but it seemed to lack a bit of top end so I hooked up a few tuning tools to see what was doing.

 

I have been going to fit an E.F.I system to it for years but undecided on what style, TBI, multipoint , sequential multipoint, TPI ?

I am running a Edelbrock performer R.P.M inlet manifold with a Holley 780 street avenger and thought TBI with ignition mapping would be the cheapest and easy to hook up. Then when I connected the vacuum gauge and pushed it wide open throttle the gauge read zero till I got  to 4,200 then the vacuum gauge crept back up to 6" so my inlet system has flow problems. Not sure if its the inlet manifold or the carby isn't flowing enough. So a TBI system might be a waste of time. I cut a hole in the engine pipe and fitted a heated O2 sensor and wired up an Autometer gauge to read the mixture. Surprisingly the carby wasn't to bad through the range a bit on the rich side but that ok. Even when it reached 4,200 rpm the mixture was still around 12.5-1.

 

The heads are AFR 195 runners so I though they should be big enough, and the exhaust are tri-y 1'7/8 primary's into 2" to the collectors then 2"3/4 so the exhaust should be up to the task.

 

Engine: Chev 383ci

Camshaft        [email protected] .500 lift 1.6 RR

Compression  10.5-1

Vac @idle       13"

 

 

I'm thinking the inlet manifold may be a fraction small for a 383ci although Edelbrock says they are OK for this application ? and it was the mid range power I was after in the first place, and that's why I decided on these components when I built the engine years ago. Its just a shame it lacks a bit of top end because it really pull hard until it gets to the top HP end of the business.

 

So now I'm thinking about a Holley HP sequential E.F.I or Edelbrock Proflow3 E.F.I.

Holley have bought out most of the opposition these days so they look like the two main players in the bolt on kit form unless I decide to build a system myself and use a motec or simular to drive it.

 

So if any one has first hand experience here I am open to suggestions. 

 

 

 

 

                 

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[76lxhatch]

I've thought about the TBI thing myself and researched a few of them but I just can't justify the expense for what basically equates to an electronic carburettor. If you prefer something bolt-on I'd be starting with the programmable ignition system only (pick one that can be used with an EFI system later) as that's where most of the gains would be with a TBI system anyway. To do EFI properly port injection is going to give a much better result for similar price in my opinion. I'm working on a custom modified Stripmaster for my early headed 308 with a four barrel throttle body - you have options when it comes to manifolds, especially if you're thinking about changing it anyway.

You don't need to fork over big money for aftermarket ECUs, the likes of the factory Delco units with a few tweaks (this is what I settled on) are much cheaper and generally offer more flexibility than anything but the top of the range aftermarket stuff, which costs thousands. The only thing is you need to be willing to tune it yourself since a lot of people refuse to support anything other than what they sell.

Since you've already got the wideband etc hooked up I would spend some time tuning it as best you can, figure out the exact strengths and weaknesses before deciding what you want to change. Its amazing how much you can learn just driving around watching the vaccum and AFR under different conditions.

Just thinking out loud with the top end power, the cam you have isn't particularly big for the cubes? Would go good on a ~300 cube engine, is a bit more of a down-low thing with 383.

[axistr]

Thanks 76lxhatch I was thinking the same the TBI is still a wet floor system and not that much gain over what I already have. Every OE manufacturer has gone multipoint, so the advantages must be there.

 

I have a Mallory 12 series Max-fire distributor which I fitted some time ago. These distributors have an electronically adjustable curve & vacuum. The disy has six pre-set curves and it also allows me to set four set points in a custom curve plus base timing. I just about had it in the zone when the dizy decided to not play the game any more and wouldn't let me reset the curve. Malloy said it was the program or me but at the end of the day it's the dizy and Mallory didn't want anything to do with it, it was to hard for them if your outside the states. So the last key stroke on the curve download was it, its not perfect but not bad either.

 

The engine really rockets up to 4,500 rpm than the vacuum rapidly increases and then power drops off very quickly. At this point the AFR gauge is still reading around 12.5-1 so my gut feeling is the manifold or carby is where its hurting the flow. The engine internals are all good for 6,500 rpm so I feel a bit ripped of if it doesn't pull to at least 5,800 rpm. Yep the cams not real big for a long stroke but I feel its still much better then 4,500 rpm with over .500" lift.

 

I also like Delco E.C.M and as you said they are cheep. When I set up the SLR I had to send the memcal out to remove the vats set to manual spec and a few extra changes, ($500) I don't have any experience setting these E.C.M plus it would cost me a few bucks to purchase the stuff to program it anyway.

 

I also have a second Mallory distributor 54 series electronic magnetic pick-up mechanical advance with vacuum. If I lock out the mechanical advance can these be used on late E.C.Ms or will I have to fork out for a dizy to suit? I e-mailed Holley but they said they hadn't done one of them yet. Don't think they employ very smart tech advice staff.

 

Both Holley & Edelbrock  new systems come standard with data loging so this would be very handy for fine tuning out side there auto dial in software.

[76lxhatch]

Wow yeah definitely sounds like there's still some potential in the current setup, you're right it shouldn't just drop off that badly at 4500rpm. Hard to imagine your manifold or heads are that bad to cause it that low in the rev range though, I would have guessed running out of fuel if it wasn't for the A/F ratio.

If you lock out the advance you can use pretty much any dizzy with the VN Delco. If its a hall effect sensor you use the factory EFI ignition module, if its a reluctor pickup (probably more likely) then you'd need to change to a Camira/Pulsar style ignition module (smaller and still available new at reasonable prices). I would imagine most aftermarket ECUs would be using reluctor pickups these days. Later ECUs with sequential or banked injection will obviously need crank position as well though which isn't so simple and probably easier achieved with a dedicated crank angle wheel and sensor. Sounds like your dizzy is closer to a spring adjustable curve than fully programmable, possibly still some improvements available in that area.

Shame you got stung on the memcal changes, that money would have covered all the tuning and datalogging gear!

[StephenSLR]

Excellent work!

I had a Mal Wood set up installed into my Mustang; here's how it was done.

 

https://www.google.c...iw=1366&bih=610

 

 

The assembly was out of a BA, I believe BA & FG manuals use the same master cylinder pedal setup assembly.

 

Congratulations for using your ingenuity and putting good use to recycled parts at a fraction of the cost.

 

Mal also has a set up for Torana but not as cheap.

 

http://www.malwoodau...dash_hydraulics

 

s

[axistr]

Thanks StephenSLR.

 

76lxhatch Thanks for the info. I tend to get a bit confused on some of the late ignition stuff, I grew up on points when I was an apprentice, than magnetic pick up come along and I moved onto heavy vehicles and all the ignition is about fuel no bloody spark. I think coil on plug is much easier.

 

When I built the SLR the bloke that did the Memcal in S.A only wanted the numbers off the E.C.M (it was already a HSV spec unit) so he sent me a complete new Memcal didn't want the old one back. Never had one done before so I didn't really know what the going rate was. As I said I haven't had much to do with car E.C.M tuning or parameter adjusting. If I had a Cummins, Detroit or Caterpillar engine in the Torrie I would be right. So any info here would be appreciated.

 

The hatch is a bit different and I want to take my time and get it right without spending a fortune. As I said It has heaps of torque but when it sees 4,200 rpm the vacuum increases to around 6" then the power delivery just flat lines. Spark could still have a bit to do with it, but the sharp increase in vacuum and a steady A.F.R 12.5 on the gauge means something just isn't flowing properly.

 

The Mallory Max-fire dizzy is full electronic no mechanical advance and uses dip switches to select 7 preselect curves and one adjustable custom curve. The vacuum advance is also electronic just like a map sensor I would think. The 54 series Mallory dizzy I also have is magnetic pickup with vacuum which moves the braker plate and bob weights for the advance. I think it wouldn't be to hard to lock them out. 

 

I can buy an Edelbrock e.f.I kit which includes a dizzy but now we are talking in the five - six thousand by the time I get it landed here.

I don't think there is a vast improvement in sequential injection over batch fire. Factory sequential seems to be improvements in emissions, but you can have individual mapping of cylinders but I would need a dyno and eight O2 sensors to make that viable.(don't think so)     

[76lxhatch]

Yeah I think the feeling about sequential is generally the same, its a lot of extra work and expense for minor gain. You would need something more powerful/newer to run sequential too. Also coil on plug would need sequential control so its not simpler in that way.

If you wanted to look into the Delco option, the guys at pcmhacking.net have a pretty cool system worked out that builds on the standard VN/VP 1227808 ECU. I've got hardware from moates.com which is good but if I were to do it again I'd use their (newer) setup. Since you already have a wideband the only expenses aside from the second hand ECU, wiring, sensors etc are:

* a chip programmer so you can write the memcal chip (http://www.darkwire....programmer.html) $139
* the USB comms conversion for the ECU (http://www.pcmhackin...php?f=14&t=3613) $120
* optionally, you can use the NVRAM memcal setup which allows real-time tuning and auto-learn when using the custom code (http://www.pcmhackin...php?f=14&t=3612) $200

The software is all free:
* OSE$12P custom ECU code, this provides enhanced functionality over factory programs/tunes including better diagnostics and real-time support (http://www.pcmhackin....php?f=27&t=356)
* Tunerpro RT (http://www.tunerpro....downloadApp.htm) free with optional donation
* Plugin for Tunerpro to use the USB comms with OSE$12P (http://www.pcmhackin...c.php?f=3&t=590)
* Flashtool allows updating via the ECU if you go with the NVRAM (http://www.pcmhackin...ic.php?f=3&t=82)

There is a bit of setup work to install the USB comms etc but nothing too major, you may even be able to get an ECU already set up.

Beyond that there's a bit of a learning curve with the software, but no more than anything else that requires tuning (as opposed to the completely self-learning units which give you less control). I think people just talk themselves out of figuring it out though, its pretty straight-forward if you understand the basics of an internal combustion engine, just with much finer control than usual.

There's a great FAQ with heaps more details (http://pcmhacking.ne....php?f=7&t=1396), the excellent tuning guides (http://pcmhacking.ne...php?f=28&t=1089), and a heap more general stuff on the forum. Some of the guys are very knowledgeable and generally very helpful.

This reads a bit like an advertisement but I have no affiliation other than being a forum member and having used their program which I find very good. The price is very hard to beat but its a bit more do-it-yourself (not as much as say a Megasquirt but certainly not bolt-on like the Edelbrock/MSD/Holley offerings).

Edited by 76lxhatch, 19 November 2015 - 07:00 AM.

[axistr]

Thanks for all the info 76lxhatch, heaps of information for me to digest. Looks like I have a fair bit of reading to undertake. I am still wondering if its the carby or manifold that's giving me the power Plato. Do the VN-VP ecm allow for wide band O2 sensor and knock sensor inputs.

 

Thanks Lenny.

[76lxhatch]

The OSE$12P code has support for wideband input on a normally unused ECU pin. This gives you full detailed logging of A/F ratios (alongside/accurately timed to target ratios and other useful info) which is really handy for tuning. If you go with the NVRAM it will also allow you to enable auto-learn on the main fuel (VE) table in the tune. It doesn't use it for normal running, the sensors aren't really designed for long term use anyway.


There is a factory knock sensor on all V6s and on the HSV V8s only. These consist of a small microphone in the side of the block, and a hard wired electronic frequency filter on the memcal. Most people don't run them on aftermarket stuff since the frequency filtering needs to change to deal with all the different noises without giving false knock. If you want to get carried away there's a custom option for a programmable filter here too:
http://pcmhacking.ne...php?f=14&t=2993
Most factory V8s didn't have any knock sensor though and once you have the tune where you want it there's not really any need for it unless you want to push the envelope.

[ls2lxhatch]

I am still wondering if its the carby or manifold that's giving me the power Plato. 

 

Thanks Lenny.

 

It would appear that the manifold is not the problem.

 

This article compares a couple of the Edelbrock manifolds. 

http://www.superchev.../0406sc-airgap/

 

http://www.superchev...ntake-shootout/

 

It would be worth putting the car on a dyno to get a baseline and see what is happening.

 

The Edelbrock EFI and Carburetor manifolds are basically the same. EFI won't make significantly more power than the equivalent flowing tuned carburetor. EFI does have its it advantages although some of them are not relevant to a low km weekend car. There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of a carburetor.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 19 November 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[rexy]

Hi Lenny,
In addition to the suggestions so far regarding the soft top end a look at whether your valve springs are too soft is suggested.
Any difference to the top end with different lash settings?

[LS1LX]

We have a similar 383 here, same heads,comp, manifold. Slightly bigger cam. Makes 505 ft lbs & 498hp on engine dyno, runs out of puff by 6200rpm.

[mick_in_oz]

A few quick thoughts questions, is this with an air cleaner fitted? if so what air filter and size?

 

Any more info on the camshaft? Brand, PN, advertised duration figures, lobe separation angle, hydraulic or solid? Installed advanced or straight up?

 

Carb Spacer?

 

Fuel system, pump type, size, etc???

 

If its pulling vac with RPM it can't really be the heads or manifold, and these will be restrictions PAST where you are measuring the increasing vac, yes they my be restrictions, but you will not measure this with a vac gauge, increasing manifold vac would normally be a carb that is too small or an air cleaner too small or blocked, nothing else should be able to cause this type of  symptom.

[axistr]

Thanks for all the helpful info guys I have a fair bit of reading to ensure I go in the right direction.

 

My main reasons for contemplating going to E.F.I are,

 

Cleaner and easier start up.

Better ignition curve.

Better A.F.R curve through out the rev range.

Better idle control with air conditioning clutch engagement.

Improving the power delivery at and above 4,200 rpm.

Improve throttle response just above idle.

Learning curve for me into E.F.I tuning. 

 

G'day Mick, air filter is a K&N including top inlet to ensure I get cold air in from the bonnet scoop. It's clean and clear of restrictions, but one of the next tests will include running it with no filter to see if there is any change in the vacuum gauge. When I worked out my air flow numbers years ago around 700 cfm was the number at 6,200 rpm so the heads and manifold shouldn't be the problem.

I am running a Holley 780 street avenger which have Vac secondary's, now I am thinking there may be an issue with them not fully opening.

 

Camshaft:

Camtech, flat tappet hydraulic with anti pump up lifters, fitted straight up which I dialled in, inlet & exhaust 285 deg 230@50 lift at cam, 309 with 1.65 roller rockers .509 lift at valve. Intake centre line 106 & lobe separation 110.

 

I am running an electric fuel pump, don't remember the flow numbers but it appears to be keeping up ok, and the AFR gauge seams to indicating this with 12.5-1 readings even when the vacuum starts increasing and the power delivery starts to plato. I have an old 1" carby spacer in the shed which I have been thinking about fitting but haven tried it yet, although I would think a carby spacer shouldn't effect the vacuum problem I have?

 

I am measuring the vacuum below the carby  so I am reading the inlet manifold pressure.

 

LS1LX that's the numbers I originally specked the engine to. When I planed out all my components I emailed AFR heads in the states who recommended the 195 heads and asked me for my intended parts list. After I included the engine specks they asked where did I get these specks from, I told them that they were mine. They informed me that they supplied Langenfelter performance engines in the states with their heads (same speck) and constantly gave them 513hp @ 5,900 & 503ft lbs @ 4,200 and that was on pump fuel at 9.5-1 compression. I have 10.5 static. When I checked the compression after assembly and before initial starting I got reading of around 250 p.s.i  on all cylinders. Which was more than I expected.           

Edited by axistr, 21 November 2015 - 07:45 AM.

[StephenSLR]

Thanks StephenSLR.

 

I just realised I put in the wrong link.

Here's how my hydraulic clutch was done in the Mustang.

 

http://www.gmh-toran...e-3#entry817244

 

s

Edited by StephenSLR, 21 November 2015 - 02:29 PM.

[UC308Hatch]

The old master cylinder has a 1" bore and the Ford master cylinder is 7/8". The original size of the slave cylinder is 1 1/16". I calculated (educated guess) and have sent the slave out for sleaving to 15/16". it was starting to leak anyway and the bore was excessively worn so it was a got time to get it.

I made a blanking plate to cover the old hole for the clutch push rod and drilled a hole in the plate for the fluid supply hose. Heaps more room around the right rocker cover and booster now.

Hey axistr, just found this thread. Really like the concept, especially considering that my post here
308 Rocker Covers with removable tops
http://www.gmh-toran...-removable-tops
Was only cause I couldn't work out how to remove the ugly clutch master without fitting a hydraulic throw out bearing. Your solution will enable me to fix the rocker cover access issue & the damn ugly clutch master, without having to remove my box.

The question I have is, when you sent out your slave cylinder for a re-sleave, did they turn down the piston to suit or did you have to buy a new piston & seal kit?

Excellent concept, sorry I'm stealing it