132 replies to this topic

[axistr]

Thanks 76lxhatch I wish it was something easy like a poor connection. I rechecked the connections but if they were a problem I shouldn't get a good spark when using the screwdriver to trigger the system. Went back out to the shed last night and checked over a few tests, When I checked the output of the pickup coil using the screwdriver to trigger the A/C pulse I have the same voltage reading on the test meter as when I crank the engine which is using the reluctor, still doesn't trigger the module but I get the same A/C voltage on the test meter. Buggered if I know, if I get the same voltage in both tests why wont it trigger it self when the reluctor is spinning. And previous tests have shown even during cranking I can still get the system to trigger adding the screwdriver action into the equation. So close but so far from getting this thing started.

 

Might try and borrow a GM HEI EST distributor and plug it into the harness and spin it by hand and if I triggers the coil I know it's something in the distributor setup.

 

Anyone got a spare 87-95 HEI distributor in the shed they want to throw out.

[76lxhatch]

I rechecked the connections but if they were a problem I shouldn't get a good spark when using the screwdriver to trigger the system.

Not necessarily, using the screwdriver may cause more of a dead short especially if its actually contacting the pickup.

 

If you can't find a spare dizzy an old ABS sensor or similar two-wire magnetic pickup and a piece of steel to act as a trigger tooth should work to test that a proper magnetic trigger works.

 

Are you getting positive and negative readings from the multimeter when you slowly move past the pickup? Multimeter will be useless when cranking, need an oscilloscope to read the output properly.

[axistr]

Cool thanks, gives me something to work on. How small can you get ABS sensors, If this test happens to work are there ones small enough to fit inside the dizzy. Never checked the output voltage of an ABS sensor before but I guess they must send a low A/C voltage?

 

When I originally set up the dizzy I bench tested it with a volt meter by slowly turning the reluctor shaft by hand and from memory I was getting a high & Low reading, but that was a few months ago. Maybe I should remove the dizzy and start rechecking everything.

 

Its very strange how the screwdriver must come in contact with the pickups metal tab to get it to trigger. Waving things in front of it gives a voltage but no trigger.  

[axistr]

Ok I think I have it sussed, Removed the dizzy from the car and set it up on the bench with a coil wired in, definitely getting A/C voltage out of the pickup coil and correct polarity. Sill triggers with the screwdriver as before so I knew it was connected right. Spun the dizzy drive shaft by hand and still not getting a trigger out of the module. I spun the shaft faster then the bugger started to trigger and gave me a nice blue spark belt from the coil that transmitted into my left wrist ouch. The speed I had to spin the dizzy was properly double the normal cranking speed, If the engine was spinning at 350-400 RPM rather than 200 rpm the engine would have properly started.

 

Now I know what the problem is just got to find a solution. The original Mallory electronic system must trigger its circuits at a much lower start up voltage and the HEI module need around double.  If I get a pickup coil with more winding maybe I will get a greater voltage output at the cranking speed. ? next alternative get a HEI dizzy and make it fit in the confined space. 

 

      

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[76lxhatch]

Well that's a pain, never heard of a practical situation where that was a problem before, normally a magnetic pickup is pretty well universally compatible. Logical though I guess, but may still be worth testing a different trigger just in case the fault lies with the ignition module?

 

How close can you safely reduce the gap to, might increase voltage?

 

Must be able to get a replacement pickup for a GM dizzy easy enough that you could install into the Mallory, the trigger is just steel so can't be anything too wrong with that. Like you say even if you managed to find a small enough ABS sensor, it only has to screw in.

[mick_in_oz]

What pick-up is used by the Nissan that the module is from? It could be the number of turns of wire that the reluctor is made up of is different and it isn't producing enough voltage out for the module to trigger reliably, which I think you have checked quite well.

 

Not trying to make more work for you, but at this point if it were mine I'd be tempted to consider changing the pick-up in the dizzy for a different style, a Hall effect Gear Tooth Sensor. The reason for the suggestion is that this type of sensor contains additional electronics with provides a nice clean switched output from the sensor that will not be supply voltage dependant and will not be speed dependant. This type of sensor is frequently used in OEM EFI situations.

 

I'm sure with a bit of hunting about you could find one that was a small amount of money, and a suitable size and shape and with leads that would make adding it to your current dizzy quite easy.

[76lxhatch]

If he changes to hall effect that will require a different ignition module (like VN-VT Commodores, which is more expensive and less reliable). A lot of hall effect sensors have been replaced by variable reluctor by OEMs; probably in no small part due to cost but they are obviously reliable enough. The advantage of the variable reluctor is that voltage generally doesn't matter, its the AC signal that is important - hence my comment about it being very unusual to not work and perhaps the ignition module is at fault.

[axistr]

76lxhatch, yep first thing I did closed up the gap Mallory recommended .010" Just doesn't have enough punch at low reluctor revolutions.

 

Thanks Grant, you might be onto something there, maybe I could get a strap and wrap it around one rear wheel a start it go-kart style.

 

Mick,the Nissan pulsar have a four point reluctor. the GM system uses a eight star pickup coil system. I looked into a Chrysler & MSD pickup coils but the width of the pickup tabs are somewhat wider and I may not get a clean trigger for the ECM. The Holley software allows for quite a few different ignition sources but purchasing some of this trial and error stuff could get more expensive than just buying a new HEI dizzy.

 

In the end I managed to pick up a new MSD street-fire HEI distributor from a local importer an Saturday. Bloody expensive cost me a whole $79.00. He asked me did I want the same distributor in a plain white box or for an extra $208 they can supply them in the MSD printed box. All the parts are interchangeable with AC Delco parts so I picked up the plain box and took it home.

 

Pulled the new dizzy apart and checked it out and tested it, all good. I tested it using a battery from my Go-kart which only had 6.8volts, turning the drive shaft super slow and sparked every time the star tabs of the reluctors lined up. Oh well I have a spare HEI module in stock from the Mallory now.

  

I needed to take 8mm out of the drip rail on the fire wall and touched up the paint.

 

Set the base timing, rechecked everything and hit the starter, did around two turns and burst into life and idled straight up. Trimmed a couple of parameters and let the self tuning software go for its life. Within five minutes the fuel tables removed -8% of the fuel and a very steady idle for a 234deg@50 cam, very impressed. Cracking the throttle now the response is brilliant, super fast, revs like a short stroke engine. Busy for the next few days, then I will secure all the wiring inside the heater fan duct and mount the ECM inside the car, take it for the first spin and let the software set the base fuel map in all areas of throttle load and positions before I start playing with any timing changes.

 

   

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[76lxhatch]

Can't get much clearer than that. Glad you got it sorted, sounds like it was worth it in the end

[SmacT]

Sorted! Good work guys, been fun following it. Confusing, but fun. :-)

[axistr]

Had a bit more of a play around with the Holley tuning software today very easy to work and so much adjustability. There is just about the same amount of features as the O.E systems these days.

 

 

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[mick_in_oz]

I found some pics that showed that the Nissan reluctor was like a blue motor HEI, my feeling is that it was simply the lack of turns of wire on the original Mallory reluctor, probably just plain unlucky that it didn't work.

 

Good to see the solution was only a small bit of extra money.

 

Does the Holley ECU use a MAP sensor for load sensing? What sort of manifold vacume does the engine produce?

[axistr]

Yes Mick I thought the same, but I think the magnet wasn't strong enough either. When I spun the new dizzy you could feel it try and stop as the reluctor tabs lined up and 1mm past this point it triggered a spark at such a slow speed.

 

Yep I am not complaining about the new dizzy price.

 

The Holley EFI software allows for four different load censoring strategies. I went for speed density, but you can choose Alpha N, VE based or combo. My engine isn't to radical so I figured speed density tuning would suit my engine best. The software also allows for nitrous, boost, water meth and a whole heap of others, none of which I intend to use at any time. Individual cylinder fuelling and timing can be corrected but again without a dyno I won't be playing around with these setting either.  My engine pulls 15" of vacuum at Idle (383ci)

 

One thing I did notice is that the new dizzy rotor wasn't phased like I expected, but soon realised that when I originally set the base timing at 10deg to get it started, the Holley software prompted me to set the crank timing using a timing light to match/sync with the timing on the laptop display. At cranking speed the timing is 10deg, but at 400rpm the ECM takes over and sets the timing at 25deg@750rpm from the timing table. You then advance the distributor to 25deg to match the Holley timing so the rotor is perfectly in line with the correct rotor cap terminal. Didn't take much notice until I matched both reading. The other cool thing is the timing also fluctuates to insure a more stable idle. Even with large cams the Idle is rock solid and the idle air control motor doesn't have to work so hard to control the idle. I can now stand behind the car in the shed at idle and it doesn't gas me out. It runs a nice 14-1 AFR. I can even set it to 15.5-1  and still idles great but at 14-1 I figure this will give me slightly better cylinder cooling to be safe.        

[mick_in_oz]

All the cubes and smaller cam producing the 15" Hg will make it easy to tune and idle like a champ.

 

Mines a lot more aggressive with the cam, mid 260's and 270's @ .050" intake and exhaust, 363 cubes, makes only 5" Hg at idle, but gets reasonable at cruse and most places in between. Still idles like a champ with the EFI (Haltech PS2000) even without the idle air control sorted, sounds lots more tame than it really is, until you get on the gas :-)

 

Great to see the stuff you moded to work and make fit, must be a Hatch owner thing, you, 76lxhatch and myself all all look to be of similar attitude to lets make it work and not bother with what everyone else does, all part of the fun.

 

 

Just noticed a pic of the Hatch, other than the wheels, that's my car!!! Right down to the red sports mirrors, don't often see that. What colour red?

[axistr]

Yes Mick your spot on, the larger the stroke the less sensitive they are to cam overlap, and lobe separation plays a big part in manifold vacuum. Depending on my base idle speed 13-15" is where its at. I am surprised you can get a steady idle with only 5"Hg of vac. 270@50 is getting up there. I built my engine around mid range torque because all my driving is only street driven. AFR heads are only 195 inlet runners.

 

The hatch is HSV sting red, clear over base, black is BMW cosmos black metallic, its surprising how many people ask me what colour it is. The metallic black paint really makes the car pop alongside the plain sting red.     

[axistr]

Finally test drive day, managed to cram all the wiring, relay and fuse inside the original air duct and hidden out of sight. The ECM fitted nicely between the A/C evaporator and firewall inside the car.  Easy access and out of harms way, with every thing back to together its  ROAD TEST TIME.

 

 I haven't put any fuel in the tank in the last three months and getting low, so the first stop, get some fresh 98 fuel. I always knew the engine just didn't preform as well as I expected and It needed setting up properly. I slowly drove down my road and onto the main road to the closest fuel station that sells decent 98 octane. slowly changed into second and squeezed the throttle down to the floor at 1,200 RPM and let the Holley software do its stuff and adjust the fuel table under different load conditions.

 

Mistake number one,

 

as the engine dug in and quickly powered on passing 2,800 rpm she broke traction and smoked the rear tyres and left number elevens for 50 metres with a bit of drift so the 11s turned into Ss at the end. Lesson learnt Don't provoke full throttle unless I have a good fuel load or a couple of sand bags in the back for ballast to aid traction.

 

The 9" has a Tru Track LSD with 3.0-1 gears (don't think I need 3.9 gears anymore) there is no need to provoke the clutch just put the foot down and it quite easily breaks traction. After putting 70lts of fuel on I thought I would take the Mrs for a slow cruise to Penrith and back and let the ECM auto dial in the AFR ratios. Being more carful with the throttle I thought it would be a good idea to let the self tuning set the upper RPM areas.

 

MISTAKE NUMBER 2,  I quickly found out at 100kph in third it also likes to excite the rear tyres.

 

WOW I just cant believe the transformation, its so smooth and the drivability is just light-years ahead of before. Its always been a nice car to drive but it was a bit hoppy at low speeds before and dipped out at the higher rpm levels. You just had to know how to manage the throttle and clutch to drive it before. Now the Mrs can drive it if I put a block under the exzooberator peddle.

 

Now I can drive it around like a pussy and turn it into a total animal when needed. I don't know what horsepower its putting out and numbers are really only bragging rights. The speck I originally built it to was 513hp 503lb torque. If seat of the pants tuning has anything to do with it here I think I may have surpassed those figures. ( Hatch Kerb weight 1,480kg) 

 

Bloody awesome.

 

 

 

              

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[76lxhatch]

Wow, sounds like it was in serious need of a tune before, perhaps the Mallory has been on its way out for some time?

 

Great result from a self-learning system and certainly makes the changeover worthwhile.

[axistr]

Yeh 76lxhatch I think I had a problem with the new Holley street avenger carby from the day I fitted it. It was brand new but the car just didn't perform like it should have and because I was running it in I didn't bother mucking around with it.

 

My Daughter wanted to go up to the blue mountains apple picking last weekend, so it was a good opportunity to get both cars out and go cruising. My daughter took the SLR and I thought it would be a good time to take the hatch and do a bit of altitude tuning. Only done around 300km since I fitted the EFI but, every time I drive it just gets better and better, the power delivery is super smooth and strong right through the rev range and it loved the altitude change. The learn table is still changing things around to the point I can now start reducing the learn rate from 100% down to 30% I attached a photo of the table which shows the percentage of change in the cells. Interesting its removing fuel around idle and low engine loads but is adding a fair bit in the maximum torque  and horsepower range.

 

We got to the apple farm only 40 minutes drive from home, parked the cars then a group of Asians driving camry's drove flat out in the car park and covered both cars with dirt & dust just as I decided to take a quick photo. I would have buried the throttle on my exit next to their cars if I thought I could have got away with it without stone chipping the hatch.

 

I have had a very minor oil leak from the TKO gearbox from new but after the last couple of drives its now leaking between the front of the gearbox and bell housing. looking through the inter web it seams common for them to do this (common fault) so now I have to pull the gearbox out and investigate the leak, its starting to leave a puddle under the car on the shed floor. It really pisses me off when you supposably buy quality new equipment and you end up having to fix it your self because the suppliers/manufactures always say its the way it was installed or the way its been driven. F**k only been a licenced mechanic for 38 years I recon I have learnt a few thing over that time, and I always treat all my equipment with the up most respect and end up getting feed lines like that.  

 

Anyway had a great day out and it's great to be able to go cruising with the kids. They enjoy driving the Torana's as much as I do. 

 

 

 

      

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[axistr]

I noticed a slight noise in the front end on the weekend thinking it may be a sway bar bush, I couldn't find excessive play in the bar bushes, so decided to grab a bar and check the control arm bushes (drivers side suspect). Removed the right lower control arm and found this. These bushes have done a grand total of 11,000 km. They haven't had heat that would degrade them. I know we don't have the best roads in Australia around here but I don't even take it on dirt roads. No wonder I hate plastic bushes in suspension components. At the time I rebuilt the car rubber bushes were not available and the local auto accessories store talked me into them telling me that these were the new style and didn't have the problems that the earlier ones did.

 

I got a hold of some rubber bushes made by Kelpro which had on the label in very small print.  product of India, bloody hell I hope they do better then the plastic ones. 

 

     

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[cameron]

That's shocking even if you had 20+k's traveled. Very dangerous that they collapsed like that. What brand, being blue where they Superpro? I have used the mackay rubber bushes and they seem to last.

 

Cameron

[ls2lxhatch]

SuperPro are a dark blue, mine were still like new after 15 years.

My guess based on colour is Noltec or Chinese knockoff

Pedders did make the best rubber bushes with seamless crush tubes instead of rolled open crush tubes.

[axistr]

Yep I am pretty sure they were Noltec. Anyway after fitting the new rubber bushes it drove noticeably better and the steering wheel is straight again. Lesson learnt stick to your guns and go with what you know works best, and don't listen to some spare parts person that doesn't really know but will tell you they do.  

[Statler]

I had the same problem with these. But it never even made it to 'road duty'. That was during the assembly process. 

 

 

I Emailed them & they supplied replacement items, provided a return post pack, & were supposed to cover the $50 cost of push in/out. 

 

The replacement items seem ok to date. 

[axistr]

Gee Col they would be great for changing caster and camber alignment settings. I'm guessing they we originally for a commodore I.R.S rear suspension.