244 replies to this topic

[yel327]

I get that, but as an owner of both V2 Monaro and V size Holden utes one has the right to call them by their correct name if they choose. To use Bomber's words if I have balls I don't call them a vagina. Others can do it if they like, but I'll never stand corrected by anyone when i'm using the factual words. It is normally ignorant Ford owners that wave their hands and make statements like "its just a two door Kingswood or Commodore". GMH fans are normally less so.

[Dr Terry]

 Otherwise we have the silly situation for exported cars or CKD kits, like Holdens to South Africa are Chevrolet not Holden, many even had Chevrolet engines and transmissions. These are based upon a Holden but they aren't a Holden. Pontiac GTO's are Monaro based, but they are as different to a Monaro as a Firebird is to a Camaro - same basic platform but different in many ways. This is also how I see most HSV's, sure they are based upon a Commodore for the sedan versions but they are no longer a Commodore.

I think is where we have to agree to disagree.

 

A Pontiac Trans-Am is a Pontiac made in a Pontiac factory with a Pontiac engine. Sure it shares a platform with the equivalent Camaro (made in a Chevrolet factory), but they are cousins.

 

CKD Holdens assembled in Sth Africa & badged as Chevs, are still Holdens, aren't they.

 

The Pontiac G8 is built in a Holden factory & leaves the country badged as a Pontiac. Arguably, it's probably more of a Holden than an HSV, which have their additions & enhancements carried out in a different factory not owned by GM-H as such. 

 

Same with a Chev Lumina sold in the Middle East, it is a re-badged Holden Commodore made in a Holden factory.

 

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

I get that, but as an owner of both V2 Monaro and V size Holden utes one has the right to call them by their correct name if they choose. To use Bomber's words if I have balls I don't call them a vagina. Others can do it if they like, but I'll never stand corrected by anyone when i'm using the factual words. It is normally ignorant Ford owners that wave their hands and make statements like "its just a two door Kingswood or Commodore". GMH fans are normally less so.

I have no problem calling a Monaro a 2-door Kingswood or Commodore, but do I have a serious problem with guys that reckon that their HQ 2-door Monaro is somehow superior to its 4-door equivalent by referring to it as "just a taxi", or similar.

 

A Fairmont or Fairlane is still just a fancy Falcon, isn't it ? I seem to remember back in 1967, the XR Fairmont had the name 'Falcon' clearly emblazoned on its hubcaps.

 

Dr Terry

[yel327]

I think is where we have to agree to disagree.

A Pontiac Trans-Am is a Pontiac made in a Pontiac factory with a Pontiac engine. Sure it shares a platform with the equivalent Camaro (made in a Chevrolet factory), but they are cousins.

CKD Holdens assembled in Sth Africa & badged as Chevs, are still Holdens, aren't they.

The Pontiac G8 is built in a Holden factory & leaves the country badged as a Pontiac. Arguably, it's probably more of a Holden than an HSV, which have their additions & enhancements carried out in a different factory not owned by GM-H as such.

Same with a Chev Lumina sold in the Middle East, it is a re-badged Holden Commodore made in a Holden factory.

Dr Terry

To me a South African assembled GMH based vehicle is not a Holden, it is a Chevrolet. Sure it has a lot of GMH origin parts but has a totally diffetent identity.

Firebird and Camaro may not be the best comparison, but it shows how not all vehicles using the same platform are the same thing. What about Beaumonts, Arcadians, Laurentian? Our Canadian Parisiennes were as much Chevrolet based as they were Pontiac but they are regarded as Pontiacs. Where does this leave the HB Torana?
To me rebadging is the key. In Australia a Datsun 240Z is what it is badged as. It isn't a Nissan Fairlady although it was built in a Nissan factory. A Ford Courier is a Ford Courier although it was built from a Mazda base. A Lexcen was built by Holden for Toyota just like Toyota built Apollos for Holden, but a Lexcen isn't a Commodore. Yes it was built in a Holden plant.

[yel327]

I have no problem calling a Monaro a 2-door Kingswood or Commodore, but do I have a serious problem with guys that reckon that their HQ 2-door Monaro is somehow superior to its 4-door equivalent by referring to it as "just a taxi", or similar.

A Fairmont or Fairlane is still just a fancy Falcon, isn't it ? I seem to remember back in 1967, the XR Fairmont had the name 'Falcon' clearly emblazoned on its hubcaps.

Dr Terry

A Monaro is in reality a 2 door Kingswood, but a GTS isn't. If one was to equate the V2 Monaros to the sedans the CV6 could be seen as a 2 door Commodore but the CV8 could be only a 2 door Calais. This is how its model coding suggests anyway, very much like HQ/J LS suggests it is a Premier.
Agree on the coupe vs sedan thing, but that taxi reference seems mainly confined to Toranas. The only superiority I guess is in rarity of maybe HJ GTS coupe vs sedan, and perhaps that HQ GTS coupes have unique model codes over the sedans that don't, but all up that means squat.

Fairmont might be a fancy Falcon but a Premier isn't a fancy Kingswood, Premier is a fancy Holden and the name was around long before Kingswood was used on a production vehicle. To me Fairlane is even more removed from Falcon than Statesman is from Kingswood. At least Statesman and Kingswood share the same HQ Series code. I agree both Fairlane and Statesman come from the same platform as their Falcon and Holden stablemates, but neither are respectively a Falcon or a Holden and as far as I am aware neither manufacturer wanted them viewed that way either.

Edited by yel327, 30 December 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[Dr Terry]

A Monaro is in reality a 2 door Kingswood, but a GTS isn't. If one was to equate the V2 Monaros to the sedans the CV6 could be seen as a 2 door Commodore but the CV8 could be only a 2 door Calais. This is how its model coding suggests anyway, very much like HQ/J LS suggests it is a Premier.
Agree on the coupe vs sedan thing, but that taxi reference seems mainly confined to Toranas. The only superiority I guess is in rarity of maybe HJ GTS coupe vs sedan, and perhaps that HQ GTS coupes have unique model codes over the sedans that don't, but all up that means squat.

Fairmont might be a fancy Falcon but a Premier isn't a fancy Kingswood, Premier is a fancy Holden and the name was around long before Kingswood was used on a production vehicle. To me Fairlane is even more removed from Falcon than Statesman is from Kingswood. At least Statesman and Kingswood share the same HQ Series code. I agree both Fairlane and Statesman come from the same platform as their Falcon and Holden stablemates, but neither are respectively a Falcon or a Holden and as far as I am aware neither manufacturer wanted them viewed that way either.

I think some of that is nick-picking, I think we have to agree to disagree & let some other forum members have a go.

 

BTW, I still reckon HK Premiers, Broughams or Monaros (GTS or not) are all fancy HK Kingswoods. By that I mean the Kingwood sedan would've been designed first & then all the others came later & got badged even later. I believe I'm talking engineering & you're talking marketing.

 

On one hand you say a Fairmont is a fancy Falcon, yet previously you say that a Calais isn't a fancy Commodore ?

 

Dr Terry

[yel327]

OK, will have to agree to disagree! I'll stick with facts as there is absolutely no way that anyone within GMH ever intended the collective Holden range to be called Kingswoods, or for Ford to have the collective Ford range called Falcons.

 

However I didn't say a Fairmont is a fancy Falcon, I just agreed that it might be. Ford used the same naming for example in XA as GMH did with VK onwards - the lower spec cars are Falcons: Falcon, Falcon 500, Falcon GT. Then they had Futura and Fairmont. Separate to these were Fairlane and later Landau and LTD. GMH did exactly the same thing with for example VN, VG, VQ. VN Commodore was the lower spec cars. VN Calais was a separate identity. As was VG ute and VQ Statesman. It isn't just marketing either. Features manuals, parts catalogues, colour charts, service manuals etc all distinguish between Commodore, Calais, Utility, Statesman etc. As I said people (including motoring journalists) can generalise all I like but I always talk in factual terms rather than general terms - it is how an Engineer's brain works! I cannot change that.

[yel327]

Yel, If you need to start quoting Bomber, you must be clutching at straws ...     Dr Terry has nailed it perfectly....  Byron your talking Marketing, when we are talking Engineering ...   If a car is built by Holden for HSV (which is HOLDEN Special Vehicles remember) to be re- badged as an even more powerful & up-spec Commodore with R8 badges........

 

And as for Balls & Vagina's,   If a male German Shepherd has Balls, and a female German Shepherd has a Vagina, arn't they both still German Shepherds ,,.. ??

 

So I guess all the Commodore Utes with Chev badges on them are now Chevy ute's ...  

 

Byron I do admire your knowledge of all things cars, but I think in this case, you are trying to say your analogy is the correct one, when it is just your method of naming these cars...   the rest of us are happy to call them what they are named, BUT we also know what they were initially built as ....   

 

PS...  To me a Sunbird is nothing more than another version of a Torana, same an a XU-1, it is a Torana ....   Pretty sure LH SLR/5000 doesn't have Torana badges on them......  are they Torana's .??   

 

And why do we call an L/34, an L/34, its not badges as one, same with  A9X ??    and if it's just because it's on the Plate ... we don't call an ss hatchback an L/31 ?? ...........

 

I'm sorry, but I side with Dr Terry, and just about everyone else ..........   Wheels Magazine included ..    

 

Ha, quoting Bomber doesn't happen all that often but he is the only one who seems to grasp the whole thing!

 

Sure i'm still a person and as I have balls i'll call myself male. Others can dress up as women if they like and call themselves female, but i'll still call myself male and will defend myself if i'm told i'm wrong!

 

There are no Commodore utes with Chevy badges. Holden utes with Chevy badges yes, but the manufacturer didn't do it.

 

I'm actually using the manufacturer's naming, nothing else. Just calling the cars what the manufacturer intended. I get told i'm wrong and i'll defend it, as I don't use wrong information. I'll stand corrected if I make mistakes but I won't when i'm right.

 

They are all Toranas apart from Sunbird. I don't think L34 is the name GMH intended, it is "colloquialised" too. It is SLR5000 with engine option L34, should have ben XU2 with engine option L34. L34 engine option gave you certain upgrades. This is no different to L31 engine option on an SLR, turned the car into the SLR5000. An SS hatchback comes with an L20 202, it is a 5.0L optioned SS hatchback. Same as a 308 optioned HQ Sandman or HQ GTS coupe is.

 

If you wanted to use the Torana analogy with the misuse of KIngswood for say all HK-WB, you'd be calling all Torana simply SL. Imagine a car show, "we've looked at all the Kingswoods now, loved that HQ Kingswood 1-tonner and that nice HQ Kingswood van, let's go and look at all the SL's. Wow dad, look at that really nice LX SL SS A9X". I seriously doubt everyone thinks this is correct, which is what i'm being told is!

 

If we are going to use the basic platform name for everything derived from that platform then we better get used to naming all VE-VF as Daewoo, as that is where the steel, the pressings, the glass, the trim and the bulk of the cars come from. The engines are US although V6 is assembled here. The transmissions are foreign. Not very much of the car is actually produced here. Assembled yes. This whole process is essentially no different to CKD packs going to South Africa to become another car. 
 

[Ice]

Are youse still bangin on about this frOck me its a Holden

[Ice]

A Holden commodore

Correct now move on ffs kids

[RallyRed]

Good discussion.......and just back to the original post........

 

""Project Erich"", Belgian entrepreneur Guido Dumarey’s plan to save the locally-developed Holden Commodore from death at the end of 2017, will kick into high-gear in the New Year.

In an exclusive interview with motoring.com.au at his Strasbourg, France, headquarters last Thursday, Dumarey said his shock bid to keep Commodore, and the Elizabeth plant in which it is built alive, must be signed off in 2016 with most of the heavy lifting completed in the first six months of the year.

He is convinced he can take the Zeta architecture that underpins the Commodore and develop a premium range of rear and all-wheel drive vehicles from it for local and export sales. He also sees the Commodore utility as the basis of a dual-purpose light commercial range that could be sold here and overseas.

The auto industry in Australia is in fact a premium auto industry, a rear-wheel drive industry,” Dumarey said.

“To me rear-wheel drive is premium.

“When you see today what Alfa Romeo is doing with Giorgio platform with Giulia. They go back to where they were and it was big mistake to stop rear-wheel drive vehicles.

“I think with the platform you have from Zeta … It’s the perfect platform.”

Dumarey already has a link to Holden as his transmission plant supplies the 6L45 six-speed auto for the the V6 engine used by the various Commodore short and long wheelbase derivatives.

Dumarey negotiated supportive terms for his takeover of the european Strasbourg GM plant, which had been announced as closing in 2014 at the cost of 1000 jobs. GM provided purchase guarantees for the first two years of operation and free license to develop the 6L40 and 45 automatic transmissions.

The plant is now ramping up to 1350 employees and is expanding courtesy of a 250 million Euro investment to build the 8HP50 automatic transmission for ZF. BMW is now its biggest customer.

But not all Dumarey’s business ventures have been successful. His ownership of BBS wheels was a bust and his involvement with another transmission company, Punch Powertrain, hit the rocks in the global financial crisis.

“Let us say for 80 per cent of the population I am a risk taker,” he said.

“But everything is a risk. Without a risk there is not any business.”

– Motoring.com.au

[wot179]

http://patienthandli...shower-commode/

[Rockoz]

Hope you guys dont have the same level of scrutiny in the rest of your lives.

 

Could imagine some of you deciding on whether or not to have sex.

 

By the time you worked it out she would probably have gone and sat on the washing machine.

[wot179]

Whirlpool or Maytag?

[Dr Terry]

I'm actually using the manufacturer's naming, nothing else. Just calling the cars what the manufacturer intended. I get told i'm wrong and i'll defend it, as I don't use wrong information. I'll stand corrected if I make mistakes but I won't when i'm right.

I think we have to lighten up here. I'm not saying that you are wrong, I just said you are being a bit pedantic.

 

To use your HQ Kingswood One-Tonner or Panel Van analogy, I wouldn't call them Kingswoods either, but I would describe them both as being One-Tonner & Panel Van versions of the HQ Kingswood.

 

As you quite correctly point out, GM-H didn't badge the L34 or A9X as such, but everybody uses those names 'colloquially'. That doesn't make it wrong to do so.

 

As pointed out by RallyRed, the Belgian entrepreneur "plans to save the locally-developed Commodore". You'll note that they didn't say that "he plans to save the locally-developed Commodore, Calais, Sportwagon, Utility & Caprice", as I believe that the vast majority of readers would've understood that what is meant.

 

I guess what I am trying to say, is that you are 100% correct in saying the a Calais is not a Commodore, but everyone knows that the Calais is included, when we say that the "new VF Commodore is to be released next week" for example.

 

Dr Terry 

Whirlpool or Maytag?

Maytag definitely.

 

Dr Terry

[Shiney005]

Do you guys refer to the Shelby 427 Cobra as an A.C. Ace?

[Holdenbn74]

Fck me that was a funny read🙃☺️☺️

[yel327]

As I said, in the end if this bloke buys the platform they won't be Commodores!

[S pack]

As I said, in the end if this bloke buys the platform they won't be Commodores!

And they won't be Holdens either.

[Rockoz]

Whirlpool or Maytag?

Im a Maytag specialist.

Best washers ever built.

[axistr]

Bugger all the name plates, its all about someone trying to save Holden If it happens, and when the new owner wants to call the Aussie car anything other than a commodore its fine with me if they continue to build in Australia. I don't care what name plate they put on it.

 

We need to continue to build cars here and support our own local manufactures who supply components and parts to Holden, we desperately need to retain skilled trades people and company's in the automotive industry or we will lose more than a few cars sales per year.

 

The Holden's of late are a world class act that we get at half the cost of a comparable European or American equivalent. I don't think I could part with my M3 but the latest weapons from Holden are a very close second in my wish list behind an Aston Marton.

 

With Ford out the back door and Toyota not far behind there isn't much left to keep the car prices and competition down in Australia. 

 

With only one major car manufacturer left in Australia why doesn't our government leaders come to the part and say, from this date on all government cars through out Australia will only be supplied from Holden and give them our full support rather than saying here is a few million because someone in Camberra  reckons it sound like a great idea to get a few more votes at election time.

 

If you go down to the local council you will find Toyota's, Mazda's, Great Wall/wally's, Isuzu, Hyundai, and just about every other manufacturer who make sedans and utes which are in direct competition with our local Holdens. The least represented cars in the fleet are Holden. Wake up polies you simple minded wankers, the answer may be easier than you think. More jobs and manufacturing in Australia equals more income to the ATO and more money for the government polies to waste on overseas field trips or what every they want to call their free holidays.

 

Ha I feel better now.      

[Dr Terry]

Im a Maytag specialist.

Best washers ever built.

I'll agree with that.

 

I have a Maytag washer & drier at home & a Maytag washer & drier at work, for workwear, overalls, towels etc. 

 

I believe the ones that I have at work are the first 2 Maytag domestic (non coin-slot) machines imported into Australia. My Dad's mate was importing them during the late 70s for laundromats & the armed services etc. & somebody suggested to him to try importing some domestic units for retail & to my knowledge my 2 units are the units imported for compliance etc. I purchased them in 1980 as 2nd hand 'demo' items. The units at home were purchased from the same importer about 2 years later, by which time he was importing them by the container load & selling them thru David Jones etc.

 

All these units have now been in continuous use for 35 & 33 years respectively. Even though they cost me around 2 or 3 times that of 'normal' units, they have more than paid for themselves & at current rate they could possibly out live me !!

 

But I digress.

 

Dr Terry