64 replies to this topic

[Growla]

Since I did my conversion. There has been a few new sumps and few things I would do differently.

Manual I would go holly retro with the shallow front (Second generation).

Auto Most motorsport. as the auto doesn't bolt to the base of the sump.

 

I would cut the cross-member down on the sides for extra clearance for the exhaust (there is a photo floating around on this site).

I would use the encapsulated engine mounts as I've got the original CAE and have broken the rubber mount twice. Maybe TUFF mounts?

 

I went manual and had to cut the tunnel to fit and get the right geometry /angle to stop the vibration. I also changed the rear extension housing (Mal Wood) to mustang/Camaro with mechanical speedo output (I still went electronic speedo) to bring the shifter forward to miss the strengthening rib in the tunnel. Others have been able to stretch the tunnel enough for clearance. I used Mal's Woods hydraulic clutch and it fitted with no problems for me, others had trouble.

 

As for gauges I use Shepparton speedos to convert the tacho and speedo to electronic. they did an awesome job. But after seeing the Speedhut 4" gauges in the flesh, I would use them and get the extra LED's in the Tach for Brake fail, Park Brake and Alternator.

 

Wiring loom. There are many companies that do it now, but I used Justin from Sideshow performance and it was simple to connect up and knows the loom of the top of his head when I damaged a loom plug and couldn't figure out the sequence of wire years later.

 

Fuel pump, I went with a BA falcon fuel pump setup with a Walbro 255 fuel pump in a custom drop tank (As it was the correct height for the tank). 

 

I have custom tri Y's extractors but have a set of the VF LSA headers and by the looks of it, it may clear the steering column once trimmed, maybe a cheaper option. But definitely, do what Geen LH LS3 said and replace the rag joint with a uni.

 

I used from speed air combined Heat /cooling vintage air unit. But I would use the Hilux setup next time from Axistr.

 

At the end of the day, it's a fiddly exercise and sometimes frustrating. Once setup you won't look back. 

Edited by Growla, 16 December 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[Statler]

Sticky?

[grumpy xu1]

First time I've seen a 4l64 auto, must be modeled of the US 4l60 as what we call the 4l60 they call the 4l65 it has a removable bell housing & the us 4l60 is 1 complete unit. A friend is a Trans specialist & rebuilds all his 60's with 65 internals for more strength. If you do a Google there's a comparison in height between the transmissions. I think big Kev had done a size comparison aswell. Gary

[adrianh08]

Just re read all of these posts and they are great advice.
I have decided to go the LS3 and have bought and stripped a donor car.
I will have a number of questions for people along the way and would really appreciate the advice.
Starting with the fuel system.
I am getting a new drop tank made. Can I use the original fuel pump out of the VE commodore tank?
I have removed it and the float from the VE tank although the fuel pump had its own float as well due to the VE tank design.
Can I use this?
Also do I need to have a purge tank set up on the drop tank and if so can I just use the one from the VE?
Basically can I use the pump and purge tank out of the VE in my new drop tank for the Torana?

[Bigfella237]

That might be a bit tricky with the VE setup, if I remember correctly those fuel tanks are basically two separate tanks (with the driveshaft running through the centre) and they have some kind of cross-feed thing that draws fuel from the half of the tank without the pump?

 

Not sure if you can just block off the cross-feed line or not, but if the pump has a built-in sump then I'd say if it worked for Holden it should work for you?

 

Either way, the best people to ask would be whoever is making your drop tank, if they've never made a tank for an EFI conversion before then I'd be looking somewhere else!

[adrianh08]

You are exactly right mate.
Basically just a line running between the float on one side to the pump on the other side of the tank.
The tank is like two tanks joined bus think section in between at the top.
A glorified U shape as it sits in front of the diff and the Tailshaft runs through the middle of it.
I'm just looking at what I can successfully use from the donor car to save me buying things again.
Appreciate your opinion.

[adrianh08]

Next question guys! (And probably more to come in the future ha ha!)

I am about to receive my new drop tank and want to plumb up my fuel system.

Will be as follows

Original VE LS3 fuel pump is in the tank

I have a Wix fuel filter with built in pressure regulator to 58PSI

I have a purge box that was originally on the commodore furl tank. It has one line to purge and one line to tank.

I have purchased Aeroflow billet fuel rails as they look pretty and eliminate the ugly cross pipe between the original rails.

 

From all my research it is a returnless system from the motor as the Wix fuel filter has a return line off it.

 

So long story short i want to be sure how to plumb this system up.

 

• Fuel pump outlet goes to fuel filter located close to tank
• Return line off filter back to tank (where does this go back in? is it one of the outlets on the pump itself? Or will the drop tank have a return line inlet welded into it. I will be receiving my drop tank this week all going well) 
• Outlet on fuel filter then runs right up to the back of the drivers side fuel rail and goes into the back of it using a T piece then goes over and goes into the back of the passenger side rail.
• Cap off the front of the two fuel rails as they also have threaded inlets on the front as well (Or do i need to run a connecting hose across the front between the two rails?)
• Do i need a fuel pressure regulator with guage on the rails or will the in filter regulator do the job as it is supposed to?
• What about the charcoal canister off the purge solenoid valve and back to the purge tank? How does this all connect together?

So basically i need verification of how to plumb all of this together. From fuel tank to motor and including pruge tank, solenoid and charcoal canister.

If someone in the know, or someone who has done it before with an LS1/2/3 conversion can point me in the right direction or even better draw up a basic diagram i would be really grateful. 

[Bigfella237]

I'd say you shouldn't need to use the pressure regulator on that Wix filter at all, the Commodore pump regulates the pressure itself and has an internal return so I guess just block off the return line coming off the filter? The regulator on the filter will do nothing anyway, since the pump will only supply it with 4 bar (58 psi) to begin with. That pump is designed to be in a NON-RETURN type system after all.

 

In a typical return type system the regulator would go in the return line (after the fuel rails), otherwise I think you might get some restriction having it in the supply side?

 

There are a couple of different schools of thought for the fuel rails, you can feed one fuel rail only and have the second fed off the first, or you can feed both fuel rails and cap off the other ends if no return line(s), in a street application I don't really think it matters that much what way you go? It would be a different story if you were pushing the delivery limits of the fuel system, or using some kind of fuel cooling setup.

 

As for the charcoal canister, the "TANK" line needs to be connected to a tank vents, but it should also have some kind of liquid separator between the tank and the canister, especially if the canister will be mounted low, you don't want raw fuel flooding into the canister! The Commodore setup had a "fill limiter vent valve" (FLVV) located at the top of the fuel sender assembly that prevents the fuel from exiting the fuel tank via the EVAP pipe to the canister (also prevented the tank from being overfilled and offered some rollover protection as well), but I guess if you're not using the Commodore fuel sender then you'll need to come up with some other kind of setup?

 

The purge side of things is controlled by the ECU in the VE, the purge line off the canister connects to the purge solenoid, which is normally located on the front of the right cylinder head, and from there to the intake plenum. I'm pretty sure there are some other sensors required on the fuel tank too, like a fuel tank pressure sensor, can't remember for sure but I have an idea that's built into the sender assembly too?

[adrianh08]

I'd say you shouldn't need to use the pressure regulator on that Wix filter at all, the Commodore pump regulates the pressure itself and has an internal return so I guess just block off the return line coming off the filter? The regulator on the filter will do nothing anyway, since the pump will only supply it with 4 bar (58 psi) to begin with. That pump is designed to be in a NON-RETURN type system after all.

 

In a typical return type system the regulator would go in the return line (after the fuel rails), otherwise I think you might get some restriction having it in the supply side?

 

There are a couple of different schools of thought for the fuel rails, you can feed one fuel rail only and have the second fed off the first, or you can feed both fuel rails and cap off the other ends if no return line(s), in a street application I don't really think it matters that much what way you go? It would be a different story if you were pushing the delivery limits of the fuel system, or using some kind of fuel cooling setup.

 

As for the charcoal canister, the "TANK" line needs to be connected to a tank vents, but it should also have some kind of liquid separator between the tank and the canister, especially if the canister will be mounted low, you don't want raw fuel flooding into the canister! The Commodore setup had a "fill limiter vent valve" (FLVV) located at the top of the fuel sender assembly that prevents the fuel from exiting the fuel tank via the EVAP pipe to the canister (also prevented the tank from being overfilled and offered some rollover protection as well), but I guess if you're not using the Commodore fuel sender then you'll need to come up with some other kind of setup?

 

The purge side of things is controlled by the ECU in the VE, the purge line off the canister connects to the purge solenoid, which is normally located on the front of the right cylinder head, and from there to the intake plenum. I'm pretty sure there are some other sensors required on the fuel tank too, like a fuel tank pressure sensor, can't remember for sure but I have an idea that's built into the sender assembly too?

Brilliant mate once again thanks for your help.

 

I was wondering about the need for a regulator in the fuel filter as i knew the VE pump which i am re using has a built in regulator.

 

I am just getting all the connections and pipe i need now. My plan is to feed to the back of the first rail, across to the second rail from it then cap off the front of both rails.

 

Re the charcoal canister my plan was to mount it up on the chassis rail or somewhere similar so it is out of sight. I have to get a new purge solenoid as the one on the motor i have has the tip of the connector broken off. Then i should be able to connect all of that up. Thanks for the heads up re the need for a liquid separator between tank and canister as i did not realise that was possibly required. I am not 100% on how to hook up the purge tank and charcoal canister  but i dont think it should be too terribly difficult in terms of fuel tank, purge tank, charcoal canister and engine in terms of starting at the tank and working out what goes where.

 

I am really looking forward to getting this successfully plumbed up for fuel as then i can attempt to start the engine. I know it turns over and has spark as ive already done all that so it will be brilliant when i can get it to start as i  will know everything is ok and i can get on with the body work.

 

Fingers crossed of course.

[adrianh08]

Question just occurred to me. Is the "Purge tank" which is on the VE commodore right at the fuel tank and has one pipe to tank and the other pipe to the solenoid (I think) designed to be the liquid separator you mentioned? I have kept it and was planning to use it near the tank as well, Is this right?

I really think i need a diagram showing where all the pipes go from the tank, to the purge tank to the purge solenoid and the charcoal canister. I think i have the fuel to the motor sorted in my head, but am a bit unclear of the emissions side of things.

[Bigfella237]

I am guessing the "Purge Tank" you're talking about is the actual charcoal canister, but no, the VE doesn't have a liquid separator as such, the FLVV (mentioned above) is responsible for keeping liquid fuel out of the Commodore vent system.

 

You may be able to use the original Torana liquid separator, pictured below as that little reservoir (5) with all the vent hoses from the tank connected to the bottom and the hose out to the charcoal canister connected to the top (it worked for Holden so why not use it)...

 

 LX Torana Evap System.JPG   196.13K   22 downloads

 

I really think i need a diagram showing where all the pipes go from the tank, to the purge tank to the purge solenoid and the charcoal canister. I think i have the fuel to the motor sorted in my head, but am a bit unclear of the emissions side of things.

 

Ask and you shall receive...

 

 VE Emission Hose Routing Diagram.JPG   73.58K   19 downloads

 

 VE Evaporative Emmisions Hose Routing Diagram.JPG   70.33K   19 downloads

 

 VE Fuel Hose Pipes Routing Diagram.JPG   75.29K   18 downloads

 

 VE Fuel Hose Pipes Routing Diagram_engine in detail.JPG   42.99K   15 downloads

 

 VE Fuel Hose Pipes Routing Diagram_tank in detail.JPG   101.54K   14 downloads

 

[adrianh08]

Why do I feel like I am about to recover an invoice and will happily pay it for quality service?
Mate you are a legend I've looked high and low for exactly this stuff and for the life of me couldn't find it. I really am in your debt and greatly appreciate your support.
I will let you know how I get on with it all and will most likely pester you with further questions.
Once again thank you mate.

[Bigfella237]

My charge for services rendered... a video of the first fire-up!

 

I'm actually a little surprised you would tackle such a project without a VE workshop manual, I have a PDF copy but it's rather large (615MB), not sure how to get it to you though if you want it? I also have a PDF copy of the VF workshop manual that includes Gen-F HSV but it's way bigger still (1.6GB).

 

I'll see if I can find a link for one that somebody else has already uploaded... standby

[Bigfella237]

Okay, found the original link where I got it from and it still seems to be active (this is the VE workshop manual):

 

https://drive.google...sp=docslist_api

 

From memory I couldn't make Firefox play nice with OneDrive so I had to revert to IE to download, but it does work.

 

This copy is a little disjointed (seems to be missing some sections) but still usable.

[adrianh08]

I will more than happily send you that video mate!
My plan is to eventually put a fully documented build thread on here but didn't want it to drag out over 4 years so when I am getting a bit closer I will start putting stuff up.
Thanks so much for that link to the workshop manual. That will be a huge help.
I have a fair few bits and pieces laying around for both 2 and 4 door LX toranas and some stuff left over from the VE Clubsport so please let me know if you are after anything mate. I definitely feel I owe you one.

[Bigfella237]

I have so much info here on LS motors I could quite literally write a book, and I would love to write up a huge detailed conversion thread here if only this forum allowed us to edit our own posts for more than a few minutes after submission, but without the ability to go back and update information as new products and technologies are released, it's just not worth the effort.

 

BTW, I've been compiling a list of V8 LS engine number prefixes over on the Just Commodores forum (where they do allow me to edit my own work), which I hope will help people identify where their 'junkyard special' engines came from, if you want to have a look it's here:

 

https://forums.justc...refixes.250144/

 

Edited by Bigfella237, 29 March 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[adrianh08]

Bloody hell mate you've put a lot of work into that research!

 

You're not joking when you say you could literally write a book on the history of the LS1 onward.

 

I've certainly benefited from your hard work that's for sure.

[Oversteer]

Moroso sump can now be had with oil filter in stock location....

Tuff mounts work...when he sends the right ones !

Gen4 engine, 6.0 l98 or ls3 is the way to go.

PSI wiring and ecu ...then tune Maf less

T56 Magnum, tall ratio with Holden extension housing and shifter.

Dellow make some great crossmembers...give good exhaust clearance....steel version may need a little trim to clear back of T56, no biggy.

3.7 9"

 

Job done....except for the brake and suspension improvements you will to do to cope with extra performance.

Edited by Oversteer, 30 March 2017 - 09:43 PM.

[ozyozyozy]

So ill way in at the back end, will cost you more than $10k to do the conversion.
Its all the little stuff that adds up.

[grumpy xu1]

3.9:1 diff with a cammed engine & 6 speed though. 6 litre maf is non restrictive, so nothing wrong with a new tune running the maf & map sensors. You can use later maf on ls1 by using 5 pin to 3 pin conversion wire, Capa did them. Gary.

[Bigfella237]

One thing you need to consider with low diff gears and the relatively small diameter wheels we typically run on a Torana is the critical speed of the driveshaft.

 

Let's say you have a 265/50R14 rear tyre, that works out to about 512 revolutions per kilometre, and the maximum speed you will ever reach is say 240km/h, then:

 

(512 x 240) / 60 = 2048 axle RPM

 

Multiply that by the diff ratio of 3.90:1 gives us a maximum driveshaft speed of:

 

2048 x 3.9 = 7987 driveshaft RPM

 

Considering a Torana driveshaft is relatively small in diameter and roughly 50 inches in length, that is likely to be well exceeding the critical speed of that tailshaft?

 

From the Mark Williams website:

 

 Driveshaft Critical Speeds.JPG   135.66K   14 downloads

 

[grumpy xu1]

I'm sure with the 6 speed manual he's talking about running, a top gear rpm of 1700 at the crank is fine, a commodore runs a small diameter shaft & I've heard of them running close to 600 rwhp with the standard shaft. I mentioned that "if" it was cammed & running a 6 speed manual, that would be what you will need to use 6th @ 100 kph, I'm sure you've driven 1 & realized that. & up to 4.11:1 with 640", I would think that the 3.9 would be a good choice. But that is only my opinion. Gary

[Oversteer]

I said 3.7....and T56 Magnum tall ratio.. it has a .63 6th gear...and a 2.66 1st.... 3.7 is perfect for this.

 

Factory VE TR6060 has a shit .5 6th gear and 3:1 1st.... which sucks balls, would suit a 3.9 diff better for 6th, but would still mean 1st gear is good for 30Kmh @ 7K rpm lol

[Bigfella237]

Sorry, I think you're missing the point? The critical speed of the driveshaft has nothing to do with what engine or transmission you have, nor how much power you make, nor the crankshaft RPM, it's purely about the "natural harmonics" of the shaft itself.

 

The road is connected to the wheels, the wheels are connected to the crownwheel, the crownwheel is connected to the pinion/driveshaft.

 

Driveshaft speed is determined by road speed (or vice versa), once the road speed reaches a certain point, the "whirling frequency" and the "natural frequency" of the driveshaft will coincide (as in the MW cap above), it doesn't matter what gear the trans is in.

 

I'm just saying, if you're gonna run low diff gears you need to plan accordingly with the driveshaft.