210 replies to this topic

[xu2308]

So much for an urban myth I guess when the orange car was registered by GMH and used by Joe for a couple of years before being returned to a 6 and sold by GMH. It would seem that quite a few people did know what happened to them....

 

Leo Pruneau told me when the Super Car Scare Drama happened, and when the cars Dissappeared that Day, He knew where they Vanished too, they were Sent out to Lang Lang to be Hidden until things blew over, Joe Felice was Given the Lone o Ranger Orange LJ GTR V8 in Sept 1972 as his Company Car, the White and Pink LJ GTR V8's were stored out at Lang Lang, the Pink GTR was used on Marketing Rides and by Management and the White and Pink GTR were used in Late 1972 in the L34 Program, Read Torana Tough Book at the start of the L34 part in the Book, it says about them used for the start of the L34 Program.

[IMORAL]

Al
That's great you have info proving what your car is. To be honest it was never about that.
The thing is EXC never meant and never will mean exchange IMO

[xu2308]

Engineers like anyone else,  can pencil in anything they want to a workshop drawing.  But it's not an official change until it is checked & authorised and dated.. And then a revised drawing is made with the changes noted in a column (just like the drawing of the LX shocky).........   But if it doesn't make it to a revision,  what ever was drawn or written means nothing...  hell he could have wrote his lunch order on there.... And try to remember,  the changes to the drawing, are made by a draftsman not the engineer..  And none of these things, do you seem to have added to your drawing.  

 

Al  seriously, cant you see that your drawing cannot be the last evolution if it has not been updated by way of the revision block...    It may well be the original drawing, but it cannot be the latest version of the drawing..  And the original drawings have to be exactly right, because as you know, they quite possibly worked around the clock, so the hand over information would have to be easily understood by all teams working on the cars..

 

frOck me,  surly there are some Engineers and Draftsman on here... Be glad to hear your thoughts, even if i'm wrong or right.......    I have worked with detailed engineering drawing most of my working life, making brand new Mining Machinery...  And the first thing you must do is make sure you have the latest version of any drawing..   

 

Al,  the clutch mechanism must be noted and drawn somewhere, because as you said, Motoring journo's tested them. The Police tested them, Larry Perkins tested at least one of them... Brock raced one,   so they definitely had a clutch in them, so it's not as if the clutch assembly held there production up.  so what is the mystery about the clutch peddle...  Wouldn't the drawing of the outrigger modification prove a whole lot more ??

Chaos

Remember the XW7 Parts List is the Engineering Parts List that is Put together: So the Factory can Build a Road going 82911 LJ V8 Car.

Now the XW7 Engineering Parts List: DOES NOT LIST A RAT TRAP AT ALL on the XW7 Engineering Parts List. Now other Existing Parts are Listed that are to be used and there is a 'N' for New Parts and there is Delete to Delete Existing Parts that are not needed. So for the Rat Trap not to be on this List at all that tells the Factory what Rat Trap to put in the Car they are putting together, then that Rat Trap is still been Tested and Trialed. May Explain this other Revision Drawing you Talk about. The Rat Trap should be and needs to be on that XW7 Engineering Parts List, If they were using the Existing 6 Cyl Rat Trap as Dave S pack says then that Part would be listed on that list as a Existing parts,  as other Existing Parts are listed, I could reel off a few Existing Parts from the List that are Listed etc. Yet there is a Part Number with XW7 pointing to a Clutch Pedal in that Drawing

 

As i said my GTR was a Pre-Production V8 Prototype, and it will be different to a Road going XW7 Factory Car (If they had of been made).

Edited by xu2308, 16 January 2017 - 08:41 PM.

[RallyRed]

As i said my GTR was a Pre-Production V8 Prototype, and it will be different to a Road going XW7 Factory Car (If they had of been made).

 

Reckon thats the key right there Al.....the drawings were probably never really finished, as the whole thing was abandoned.

Otherwise Chaos's ""rules for drawings"" are the killer for your drawings, but, in a prototype/experimental environment, a lot of that stuff is flexible, in my experience.

Thats the whole point, they are doing stuff that IS NOT on the drawings and doing stuff that WILL BE on the drawings once they are happy it works.

Furthermore...one could well imagine that the guys went home one arvo with all sorts of stuff 1/2 sorted, 1/2 finished, 1/2 drawn....and the next day when they came in, they were told it was all over and just get it off your desk..and quickly.

 

Theres a good chance IMHO, that if you could magically line up the 3 proto LJs, the would all be very different. 

 

As I said in a post of your other thread, about 20minutes before the whole thing was deleted....there is a heap of interest in you car....and the more questions that are asked, then answered, the more 100% solid it becomes. You have Ben's letter and now this toing and froing is the cream on the cake.

 

p.s ..as for that bloody clutch pedal notation  on the drawing you have shown ...FOK...fu#^&% only knows.

[S pack]

HHS Records information know which 3-Adelaide Built LJ GTR's they are, My GTR is one of them, i showed on here the HHS Cetificate that was issued to my GTR,  that says My GTR was a Working V8 Prototype in the V8 XW7 Program.

Ben would of told you that Dave that my GTR is one of the Three GTR's,  YOU Dave Portrayed it as Ben said it was at Engineering at the Time of the XW7 Program and that is all the Number Prove.  HHS Records have the Information which 3-LJ GTR's that Engineering put the 308 V8's in.

I think you owe me a Apologies Dave and Ben for Portraying things in a Different light.

I have already made a public apology and correction in Post #91 for any confusion that my post may have made.

I will tell Ben what I said in that post next time I talk to him.

I stand by my opinion though. The numbers prove your GTR was at experimental engineering but the numbers do not prove any more than that.

My issue is not with the verification of the numbers, as I have told you I accept Ben's verification of the numbers for your GTR.

My issue is with the physical evidence that the EX Experimental Engineer claims to prove your car had a V8 in it. The physical evidence shown in some of the AMC pics does not add up.

[S pack]

That is the Instruction Deawing for Propeller Shaft Chart

XW7 has a Different Propeller Shaft Part Number to the Opal Propeller Shaft, we are Talking XW7 V8  are we Not, Not Opal Shaft.

The Opal Shaft has nothing to do with the XW7 Program at all.

Remember the XW7 V8 LJ was a Special Export Vehicle.

It's not actually a drawing, more of an options list.

The point is it proves experimental engineering were working on a built export or CKD LJ Torana 6cyl body fitted with OPEL 4cyl engines and MC6 4spd transmission back in February 1972.

The MC6 manual transmission uses a clutch cable to operate the clutch not linkages like the domestic 6cyl LJ Torana.

It makes perfect sense that the new clutch pedal part number is for this export 4cyl LJ Torana. Hence why the new part number needed to be annotated with exclude XW7.

Edited by S pack, 16 January 2017 - 09:43 PM.

[S pack]

Chaos

Remember the XW7 Parts List is the Engineering Parts List that is Put together: So the Factory can Build a Road going 82911 LJ V8 Car.

Now the XW7 Engineering Parts List: DOES NOT LIST A RAT TRAP AT ALL on the XW7 Engineering Parts List. Now other Existing Parts are Listed that are to be used and there is a 'N' for New Parts and there is Delete to Delete Existing Parts that are not needed. So for the Rat Trap not to be on this List at all that tells the Factory what Rat Trap to put in the Car they are putting together, then that Rat Trap is still been Tested and Trialed. May Explain this other Revision Drawing you Talk about. The Rat Trap should be and needs to be on that XW7 Engineering Parts List, If they were using the Existing 6 Cyl Rat Trap as Dave S pack says then that Part would be listed on that list as a Existing parts,  as other Existing Parts are listed, I could reel off a few Existing Parts from the List that are Listed etc. Yet there is a Part Number with XW7 pointing to a Clutch Pedal in that Drawing

The Engineering parts list states on the 1st page

 

THE FOLLOWING OPTIONS ARE MANDATORY.

MODEL 82911

G92 REAR AXLE - 2.78:1 RATIO

M21 MAN TRANS 4SPD (2.54:1 F)

HD FLOOR SHIFT  

 

INDIVIDUAL ITEMS ARE ALSO REQUIRED AND ARE SPECIFIED AS VARIATIONS FROM THE STANDARD VEHICLE IN ACCORDANCE WITH NORMAL RELEASE PROCEDURE.

 

So Al, which part of the above statement don't you understand????

 

The rat trap and clutch pedal part numbers are not in the engineering parts list because they do not need to be, they do not vary from the standard vehicle. ONLY PARTS THAT ARE VARIATIONS FROM THE STANDARD VEHICLE NEED TO BE ON THE PARTS LIST.

 

THE EXISTING PARTS ON THE PARTS LIST ARE PARTS THAT ARE NOT NORMALLY FOUND ON THE 82911 (GTR). 

[Uncle Chop Chop]

The clutch peddle assembly must have been finished, as the 3 cars were finished and road tested.   

 

The three cars were still being tested when the program was canned. The paperwork wouldn't have been updated for a cancelled project, would it?

 

And for somebody who is bullshitting on about engineers and how everything MUST be 100% correct, check your spelling.

[S pack]

The three cars were still being tested when the program was canned. The paperwork wouldn't have been updated for a cancelled project, would it?

 

And for somebody who is bullshitting on about engineers and how everything MUST be 100% correct, check your spelling.

Harry Firth reckoned the V8 XU1 was only weeks away from production when it was canned. The XW7 parts list was finalised on the 28th June 1972 and long lead time parts were already ordered.

 

Bullshitting about engineers??? Engineering Standards and protocols have been put in place for damn good reasons.

Those GMH engineering drawings need to be accurate and concise for all the numpties in the assembly plants to easily understand which thingamy goes with what doohickey on the assembly line. 

 

There are other contributors to this thread whose spelling is not up to scratch so why not pick on them too while you are at it.

[xu2308]

The Engineering parts list states on the 1st page

 

THE FOLLOWING OPTIONS ARE MANDATORY.

MODEL 82911

G92 REAR AXLE - 2.78:1 RATIO

M21 MAN TRANS 4SPD (2.54:1 F)

HD FLOOR SHIFT  

 

INDIVIDUAL ITEMS ARE ALSO REQUIRED AND ARE SPECIFIED AS VARIATIONS FROM THE STANDARD VEHICLE IN ACCORDANCE WITH NORMAL RELEASE PROCEDURE.

 

That is well and good Dave, Still there are Existing Parts that dont need to be on that List, but are on that List ?????. I have in my Years of info stuff a Email address to a GM Engineer Contractor that was in volved on the XW7 Project as in the Drawing side of things, i Hope he still has the same Email Address, as i have emailed him to ask him is there any more Drawings other than the 22 Drawings or any Revision Drawings done as well, so we will wait and see what he replys.The Road going cars were Two weeks away from been Built not One week away, that is what Harry Firth said.

The 160 MPH Super Cars Soon Headline in the SMH Newspaper was on the 25 June 1972, the XW7 Engineering Parts List is Dated 28 June 1972. Friday June 30th 1972 GMH put out a Carefully worded letter saying: Because of the Concern expressed by Government  leaders about entries of all makes in the Bathurst 500 race and the possible future use of such vehicles on the road, we have decided that no V8 Torana XU1 model will be built.  Bill Gibbs the GMH MD stopped everything.

Edited by xu2308, 17 January 2017 - 01:30 AM.

[xu2308]

S pack, on 16 Jan 2017 - 22:21, said:
I have already made a public apology and correction in Post #91 for any confusion that my post may have made.
I will tell Ben what I said in that post next time I talk to him.
I stand by my opinion though. The numbers prove your GTR was at experimental engineering but the numbers do not prove any more than that.
My issue is not with the verification of the numbers, as I have told you I accept Ben's verification of the numbers for your GTR.

You say here the Number prove my GTR was at experimental engineering but the numbers do not prove any more that that, then you accept Ben's verification of the number for my GTR. HHS has the Information which 3-LJ GTR's that got the 308 V8's put in them, My GTR was issued a HHS Certificate to say its One of the Three GTR's from there Records as experimental engineering had that information. So that means you accept what the HHS Cetificate says that my GTR was a Working V8 Prototype in the XW7 Program.

Edited by xu2308, 17 January 2017 - 01:53 AM.

[S pack]

The Road going cars were Two weeks away from been Built not One week away, that is what Harry Firth said.

 

The 160 MPH Super Cars Soon Headline in the SMH Newspaper was on the 25 June 1972, the XW7 Engineering Parts List is Dated 28 June 1972. Friday June 30th 1972 GMH put out a Carefully worded letter saying: Because of the Concern expressed by Government  leaders about entries of all makes in the Bathurst 500 race and the possible future use of such vehicles on the road, we have decided that no V8 Torana XU1 model will be built.  Bill Gibbs the GMH MD stopped everything.

 

Where did I claim the V8 XU1's were only one week away from production???

 

I said and I QUOTE: "Harry Firth reckoned the V8 XU1 was only weeks (WEEKS, as in plural, more than one) away from production when it was canned. The XW7 parts list was finalised on the 28th June 1972 and long lead time parts were already ordered".  

 

The headline in the newspaper was on the 25 June 1972, so what.

It seems it was business as usual at GMH Engineering which resulted in the XW7 parts list being FINALISED on the 28 June 1972 before the the whole lot was canned on the 30 June 1972. Oh yes, the carefully worded letter that said they would not build any V8 XU1's but did not say they would not build any V8 GTR's.

 

 

[S pack]

 I have in my Years of info stuff a Email address to a GM Engineer Contractor that was in volved on the XW7 Project as in the Drawing side of things, i Hope he still has the same Email Address, as i have emailed him to ask him is there any more Drawings other than the 22 Drawings or any Revision Drawings done as well, so we will wait and see what he replys.The Road going cars were Two weeks away from been Built not One week away, that is what Harry Firth said.

Good Al. Whilst you are at it ask him to explain to you how to interpret those XW7 documents correctly.

Probably a good idea also to contact as many of the previous owners of you car as you can and ask them if they know where those HT rat trap parts and the replacement front suspension crossmember in your LJ GTR came from.

Edited by S pack, 17 January 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[Rockoz]

Just thinking out loud here once again.

Havent I seen here on this forum at some stage some cars that had additional bracketry for an exhaust to suit a V8 application?

Was a few years ago I saw it so not sure.

Anyone else remember something like that?

[xu2308]

Just thinking out loud here once again.
Havent I seen here on this forum at some stage some cars that had additional bracketry for an exhaust to suit a V8 application?
Was a few years ago I saw it so not sure.
Anyone else remember something like that?

The XW7 road going car was geting the XU1 muffler set up, ask S pack he has the Drawings so it seems

[xu2308]

Good Al. Whilst you are at it ask him to explain to you how to interpret those XW7 documents correctly.
Probably a good idea also to contact as many of the previous owners of you car as you can and ask them if they know where those HT rat trap parts and the replacement front suspension crossmember in your LJ GTR came from.

Yeah and I will ask him about the Engineers been very busy and the Pencilling in things stuff . My Trailing arm is Bent down at the back and been trimmed on the top of it and the Rat Trap had the Experimental Engineering markings on it just like XW7 Drawing of the XW7 Engine mount says use Paint to identify as XW7, oh they marked stuff at Engineering that someone said they didn't

[xu2308]

Thought I might clarify a few things without adding to the specific details of the arguement.
 
All the drawing you guys are discussing are actually called illustrations. They are specifically used for assembly in the plant and for product manuals/ dealerships They are completed by the illustration department, under the instruction of a system engineer and employed people often based on their artistic abilities more than their engineering knowledge.
 
These are different to engineering (part and assembly drawings) which were 2d layouts used for production and tooling of the specific part. These are dimensionally accurate and contain specific geometric tolerancing information for production. These were completed by the drafting department also under instruction from the system engineer. Most of these old manual engineering drawings no longer exist and have been destroyed. They were quite large as they were drawn to scale and were difficult to store.
 
Both types of drawing used a "change control" where every change "should" have been recorded in the title block with revision, date ,name etc. and a brief description of the change, with a change "bubble" indicating the change visably. These were usually checked by a designated "checker", usually a team leader.
 
Specific changes to the part design may not be reflected in the illustration drawing as it is just a visual representation. Assembly changes or part number changes "should" be recorded in the illustration.
 
This process has not really changed over the years and still exists today, major difference now is the use of CAD and other specific illustration packages.
 
Just a bit of info, based on experience from within GMH, Ford and Toyota. I hope its somewhat useful.

I seen Card Code under the Drawing, Chaos there you go no wonder the Pencilling In Hapened It's still a Revision by a GMH Engineer, part number for that XW7 Clutch Pedal is there for a reason

[S pack]

The XW7 road going car was geting the XU1 muffler set up, ask S pack he has the Drawings so it seems

I wish. I don't have the drawings but I have seen them and have made heaps of notes.

I seen Card Code under the Drawing, Chaos there you go no wonder the Pencilling In Hapened It's still a Revision by a GMH Engineer, part number for that XW7 Clutch Pedal is there for a reason

Clearly says EXC  XW7 so that means that part is NOT used on XW7.

[xu2308]

That part number is clearly XW7

[Rockoz]

That part number is clearly XW7

 

No it is not.

It says exclude XW7.

How many times do you need to be told from people that use these types of  drawings to earn their income?

People who use them daily.

But as usual you seem to be clutching at very thin straws.