210 replies to this topic

[xu2308]

A question for you both Dave and Al. Does HHS have records of any other LJ GTR's (I guess 4/72 Adelaide build)) at experimental at this time? Personally, I couldn't care about rat traps and subframes, and any other things that could be changed over the years. If the ADR tag was fixed to that body, and the car is from the Adelaide plant, then the numbers on the back of the ADR tag tell the story. 

 

​Yes

HHS has the PSN numbers to the Three Adelaide Built LJ GTR's that experimental engineering put the 308 V8's in

They were 3-Adelaide LJ GTR's all Built on the 13/4/1972

[xu2308]

there used to be a thread about the V8 Xu1 prototype as I recall.....but I think it was scrubbed...so at the risk of a stoning...

Youse can only use small stones anyway...çause essentially, this thread is about the same thing anyway.

 

This just popped up on F/B ( credit to Lynden C Maxfield‎Old Car Yard Photographs - Australia)

Holden Torana ad Leven Motors, Ulverstone 74

 

This SMP LJ XU1 that was in Ulverstone in 1974 is a 8/1972 LJ XU1, nothing to do with the XW7 Program

[xgtr]

Why in such a hurry to get rid of me Al?.

Edited by xgtr, 17 January 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[xu2308]

Today i Contacted a XW7 Engineer

Now i am Man enough to say i am wrong and i am also not wrong

 

The EXC means EXClude or EXCept

So sorry to Caos and Rockoz

 

Now where i am not wrong on it, i will explain

The XW7 Engineer said that they EXC the 6 Cyl Clutch Pedal and 6 Cyl Rat Trap

then they EXC the XW7 Clutch Pedal and the 6 Cyl Modified Rat Trap that they did Due to Components were breaking, Due to the 308 in the LJ GTR's had a Heavy Duty Clutch and Pressure Plate that Harry wanted in the GTR's, so then they made up a Hybrid HT/HG rat trap to fit in the GTR's, Now this Rat Trap was under test at the Proving Ground (That is why its called the Proving Ground).

There was ment to be a Revision Drawing done for this, but they had not done it at that stage due to more testing was needed, and then the Program was Stopped by Bill Gibbs and the Revision was never done

 

He also said if you look in the XW7 Parts List the Heavy Duty Clutch and Heavy Duty Pressure Plate was left out and the Clutch Pedal and Rat Trap, these were left out Due there was going to be a Revision on them as they were under test.

Revisions can be Added just before production and during production and after production.

Edited by xu2308, 17 January 2017 - 11:53 PM.

[xu2308]

Also the XW7 Engineer said there were only the 3-LJ GTR's

One was White

One was Pink

One was Orange

When the Program was stopped, the GTR's were sent out to Lang Lang, then after a few days they were bought back, as Bill Gibbs wanted the 308 V8's removed, after two Days later the 308 V8's were put back into the GTR's then they were sent back to Lang Lang.

 

Reason the V8's were removed for them few days, so Bill could say there was No V8 Torana's at Holden.

Edited by xu2308, 17 January 2017 - 11:52 PM.

[xgtr]

So what about Harry's White Mule, the one which Leo Pruneau mentioned in his write up,

 

What became of that? 

[xu2308]

So what about Harry's White Mule, the one which Leo Pruneau mentioned in his write up,

 

What became of that? 

 

Harry's White Mule would be the 1971 LC HDT XU1 (KZR565) that car was used in the 1971 Racing Season, it was Painted Yellow and became the Yellow V8 LC HDT Prototype and was fitted with KSN116 number plate.

Edited by xu2308, 18 January 2017 - 12:17 AM.

[xgtr]

Not likely, but we will see won't we

[RallyRed]

makes sense to me..I think

Now this Rat Trap was under test at the Proving Ground (That is why its called the Proving Ground).

There was ment to be a Revision Drawing done for this, but they had not done it at that stage due to more testing was needed, and then the Program was Stopped by Bill Gibbs and the Revision was never done

 

He also said if you look in the XW7 Parts List the Heavy Duty Clutch and Heavy Duty Pressure Plate was left out and the Clutch Pedal and Rat Trap, these were left out Due there was going to be a Revision on them as they were under test.

Revisions can be Added just before production and during production and after production.

 

 

...the drawings were probably never really finished, as the whole thing was abandoned.

...... in a prototype/experimental environment, a lot of that stuff is flexible, in my experience.

Thats the whole point, they are doing stuff that IS NOT on the drawings and doing stuff that WILL BE on the drawings once they are happy it works.

Furthermore...one could well imagine that the guys went home one arvo with all sorts of stuff 1/2 sorted, 1/2 finished, 1/2 drawn....and the next day when they came in, they were told it was all over and just get it off your desk..and quickly.

[xu2308]

Hi Al,
Did Joe's car have the 6 cylinder put back in at the same time the white and pink cars did?
If so, did a V8 find its way back in Joe's car before it again receiving a brand new 6 cylinder for sale in the tender.

Did Joe's car have a V8 or 6 cylinder in the photos we have seen at Bathurst 1973?

Your explanation makes much more sense now which is what I choose to believe now, just now confused over Joe's car and why we possibly also have a "green car" not mentioned here.

The Tender Sheet for Joe's Orange Car said it had a 308 V8 for 18 months, it was rego at FIsherman Bends on the 6th Sept 1972 as a V8 Car with a QT 308 in it. The Photos of Joe's Car was at the 1973 Bathurst weekend, I would assume it still had it's 308 V8 that Bathurst weekend. Joe's Orange Car was Tendered in Feb 1975, going off the 6Cyl QL 202 Engine number in the Car, then it was returned back to a 6Cyl in late 1974. This Green car is a mystery machine, only Leo recalls a Green Car, Joe Felice said the GTR's were White,Pink and Orange. Norm Darwin said the GTR's were White, Pink and Orange. The XW7 Engineer I spoke to yesterday said the GTR's were White, Pink and orange. He said the White and Pink GTR were still V8's out at the Proving Ground then they Vanished and Joe was Driving the Orange car still.

[xgtr]

Just a thought on the subject of the Green car if I may.

 

There doesn't seem to be any time frame for who saw what and when but we do know that the cars were last seen in the styling department (Leo's department).

Doesn't Leo tell you that the White car is a Green car?

 

Any thoughts on this?

[S pack]

Why in such a hurry to get rid of me Al?.

Mate, your GTR must have been in XW7 at Exp Engineering too.

 

I remember Al told you your crossmember brace arm lip was bent down the same as his which was done by them XW7 exp engineering guys them the ones that worked on the XW7 V8 LJ project and bent his lip down to clear the starter motor to not fowl the XW7 308 engine starter motor so It didn't hit that lip.

[sagman]

Hi guys , interesting read ... for what it's worth i throw in my take on Al's car.
I have had a bit of experience at finding out about cars that seemingly don't exist over the last decade ...
I have without exception found the best source of what was done to these vehicles is to go to as mamy of the people who were involved with the concept, component and hands on involvement with the particular cars ... after all They were there. ...
I have spoken with these people over time and from different engineers to the hands on in the build up area have all asked for and been given specific pics of areas that they wished to see and are satisfied that the car is correct. ...
So what is it that we who weren't there need to have proved when those already there have ... i don't get it .....
Then there's the suspension and components which are quite uniquely HDT ... wonder how they got there. .... nothing else to say on this subject. ..

Re green car ... an interview with Ray Borrett many years back had him mention a green torana . As pointed out Leo also mentioned a green torrie in an old interview , although he is not so sure now and one of illustrators who did the drawings has the same recollection . Add to this one of the Brock family members who says the best car he had been in was a green V8 Torana driven by Peter

Lastly ... parts on cars that don't appear on lists .... a friend of mine has a car with parts that are not on the production cars ... it is FPV GT 001, gauges , computer and a number of other components with writing all over them arr fitted to this vehicle. ... shouldn't have been sold but it was and ford tried unsuccessfully to buy it back. ..happened back in the day an still happens ( not for much longer !!)

Chill guys
Laz

[xu2308]

Just a thought on the subject of the Green car if I may.

 

There doesn't seem to be any time frame for who saw what and when but we do know that the cars were last seen in the styling department (Leo's department).

Doesn't Leo tell you that the White car is a Green car?

 

Any thoughts on this?

Leo has never said the White car is a Green Car, He said he recalls a Green Car, Leo thought the GTR's were Lone o Ranger, Strike me Pink and Green.

Joe Felice recalls

1-Lone o Ranger GTR (Orange)

1-Strike me Pink GTR

1-White GTR

 

Norm Darwin recalls

1-Lone o Ranger GTR

1-White GTR

1-Strike me Pink GTR

 

The XW7 Engineer i spoke to the other day recalls

1-Lone o Ranger GTR

1-White GTR

1-Strike me Pink GTR

 

Phil Zmood recalled a Green Car

So this Green Car is a Mystery Machine.

 

The Information that HHS has from Experimental Engineering is

The PSN's and the Paint & Trim Tag Info to the 3-Adelaide Built LJ GTR's Built on the 13/4/1972 (000 M) were the 3-GTR's they put the 308's in.

and there Colours were Lone o Ranger, Strike me Pink and White. 

 

So this Green Car is a Mystery so far.

Edited by xu2308, 19 January 2017 - 11:33 AM.

[xu2308]

Mate, your GTR must have been in XW7 at Exp Engineering too.

 

 

 

xgtr needs to Contact HHS with his PSN Number and see what there records have on his Brisbane built GTR, Cost $90 for a Certificate xgtr, and see what comes up.

Edited by xu2308, 19 January 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[S pack]

xgtr needs to Contact HHS with his PSN Number and see what there records have on his Brisbane built GTR, Cost $90 for a Certificate xgtr, and see what comes up.

 

Whats the point? You have already told xgtr his car was not involved in the XW7 V8 program. Which I agree with you, as everyone can see his crossmember brace arm is untouched factory standard apart from a scallop ground into the arm backing plate for whatever reason.

[S pack]

Hi guys , interesting read ... for what it's worth i throw in my take on Al's car.
I have had a bit of experience at finding out about cars that seemingly don't exist over the last decade ...
I have without exception found the best source of what was done to these vehicles is to go to as mamy of the people who were involved with the concept, component and hands on involvement with the particular cars ... after all They were there. ...
I have spoken with these people over time and from different engineers to the hands on in the build up area have all asked for and been given specific pics of areas that they wished to see and are satisfied that the car is correct. ...
So what is it that we who weren't there need to have proved when those already there have ... i don't get it .....
Then there's the suspension and components which are quite uniquely HDT ... wonder how they got there. .... nothing else to say on this subject. ..

Re green car ... an interview with Ray Borrett many years back had him mention a green torana . As pointed out Leo also mentioned a green torrie in an old interview , although he is not so sure now and one of illustrators who did the drawings has the same recollection . Add to this one of the Brock family members who says the best car he had been in was a green V8 Torana driven by Peter

Lastly ... parts on cars that don't appear on lists .... a friend of mine has a car with parts that are not on the production cars ... it is FPV GT 001, gauges , computer and a number of other components with writing all over them arr fitted to this vehicle. ... shouldn't have been sold but it was and ford tried unsuccessfully to buy it back. ..happened back in the day an still happens ( not for much longer !!)

Chill guys
Laz

Hi Larry

 

With all due respect I will disagree. Koni shock absorbers, Lovells springs and Selby sway bars were not the sole domain of the HDT.

 

Cheers

Dave.

 

 

 

[sagman]

Dave , as previously discussed with you the suspension components are what HDT ran in '71 / '72 .... and certain components were unique to HDT at that time... i am comfortable with what i have learnt about what they ran back in the day from conversations with Harry and other Mechanics from HDT.
Whether or not you accept that is entirely up to you ...

Laz

[xu2308]

Whats the point? You have already told xgtr his car was not involved in the XW7 V8 program. Which I agree with you, as everyone can see his crossmember brace arm is untouched factory standard apart from a scallop ground into the arm backing plate for whatever reason.

HHS might have some info on xgtr car maybe.

Edited by xu2308, 20 January 2017 - 04:57 PM.