34 replies to this topic

[Shiney005]

If you are looking for six cylinder pumps go here. http://www.gmh-toran...n-6-waterpumps/
 
After discovering that I had two different types of single small inlet water pumps, (spares for the L34) I thought I would have a bit of a dig around to find out what I had. After perusing other forums it seems that a bit has been written on the differences between long and short, but there has been no real study done on the differences between each type of pump within model lines. There are a few different part numbers for early pumps and I am trying to work out which ones belong where. If anyone has any photos of factory pumps they will be greatly appreciated. I'll try and get them in year order starting with the development of the 253. I am no expert however and am relying on other members to fill in the blanks and correct me when I'm wrong.
 
Pictured here is the original developmental 253 in 1968. You can see the boss in the timing cover for the oil filler pipe and the two small pipes on the water pump are separate. Both of these are inlets.
 
 
 308 waters first 253.jpg   129.19K   28 downloads
 
Press photo of "new" 253.
 
 308 water (2).jpg   308.11K   21 downloads
 
Pic from OldHolden via arrimar
 308 early water pump_1.jpg   96.98K   20 downloads
 
I can't find a good photo of a factory HT 253 that shows the cabin and manifold heater hoses, but as you can see in the pic below of the HG 308, water was fed into the manifold on the left (passenger) side via the small outlet built into the thermostat housing. This outlet and the one alongside it supplies hot water regardless of the position of the thermostat. (The same goes for the twin outlets at this position in the later motors) It then exits the manifold on the right side and into the right hand inlet on the pump. The water for the cabin heater exits at the manifold from the outlet alongside the thermostat housing. It then goes through the heater core, then into the left hand inlet on the pump. If anyone has the HT factory service manual showing the heater hoses a scanned picture would be appreciated. The part number for HT and HG is 7434747 (thanks Kockum), however it is not stamped on the front of the pump like the later models.
 
 308 waters hg.jpg   67.72K   15 downloads
 
The 253 inlet manifold showing the hose locations.
 308 253 HG2.JPG   96.42K   12 downloads
 
HT Brougham with a 308.
 308 HT 3.jpg   36.22K   13 downloads
 
Repco built two variants of its F5000 Holden V8. I'm not quite sure of the dates, but Gen 1 was in 1970 and Gen 2 in 1972. The picture below shows both engines. The interesting thing is that the bottom one (Gen 2) has the original design water pump with two small inlet pipes, and the top one (Gen 1) has what appears to be the later water pump with the right side cast blank. I can only surmise that the photo of the Gen 1 engine was taken later in its life.
 
 308 waters repco both.jpg   83.74K   17 downloads
 
This next pump has the right hand side small inlet pipe cut short and cast blind. It was fitted to the HQ with the parts book showing the number 2824553.
 
 308 HQ pumps.JPG   121.96K   14 downloads
 
The pics below are obviously of a restored car, but it looks right to me.
 
 308 water (1).JPG   157.21K   12 downloads
 
 308 water 1.1.JPG   163.4K   15 downloads
 
There was a change in inlet manifold design around the same time that the HJ and LH were released.
 
 308 water brads.png   604.21K   15 downloads
 
 I haven't been able to access a HJ parts book, but the first LH parts book (M37459) lists the part number for the pump as 2824553. In the later LH parts book (M37687) it also lists it as 2824553, but this has had a line drawn through it, and hand written alongside is M38239. I don't know which book this number belongs to.  I have found it impossible to find a photo taken back in the day that clearly shows an LH SL/R pump. The photo of Brads engine below demonstrates the correct heating hoses positions, however the pump itself is incorrect. I reckon he probably loses sleep over that one!   
 
 Brads LH 3.jpg   125.52K   17 downloads
 
Will post more in 10 minutes.

[Shiney005]

While we are on the subject of heating hoses, the L34 had heating of the manifold deleted, so the inlet to the cabin heater came from the thermostat housing through a hose that would have had its own part number. In the pic below, you can also clearly see the blind right hand inlet pipe on the pump.

 

 308 water L34 Bruce Sutton.jpg   104.57K   17 downloads

 

L34 with blanked off manifold heating.

 

 SydneyNats0049.jpg   134.91K   10 downloads

 

The L34 parts catalogue supplement does not mention the water pump, however an amendment bulletin dated September 1974 adds "Pump assembly water" with part number 9939822. A revision from CAMS dated October 1974 mentions it as well.

 308 arrimar3.jpg   26K   8 downloads

 

 Part numbers for the L34 often don't match up with what is cast on the part. This includes the heads and inlet manifold, so the added pump could be the next one below.

 

The next type of pump is a variation of the single inlet type. I can only assume it came later in the timeline because it is a new casting without the provision for the right hand inlet pipe.

 

 308 single late NOS.JPG   115.51K   12 downloads

 

 308 single late NOS2.JPG   114.64K   10 downloads

 

I bought the above NOS pump some years ago and the seller said it was L34, but now I'm not sure.  My car had the blind inlet pipe when I bought it 22 years ago. Photos below of L34 without provision for the pipe,

 

 308 water L34 single.jpg   80.53K   14 downloads

 

and with it.

 308 water l342.jpg   87.92K   10 downloads

 

This LX is on the forum somewhere and has no provision for the pipe but it also has the early timing cover and manifold so it has probably had an engine swap.

 308 water 5.jpg   68.92K   8 downloads

 

I should note here that all three of the pumps that I have carry the same part number of 2824541.

 308 water single outlet HG and L34 (1).JPG   110.83K   8 downloads

 

As do the two photos provided by arrimar.

 308 arrimar.jpeg   38.58K   9 downloads

 308 arrimar2.jpeg   36.71K   8 downloads

 

 

 

The next pump has two small inlets alongside each other. This one comes online at the same time as the inlet manifolds went from water heating to having the exhaust crossover, so my guess is HX and LX. I guess this was part of ADR27A, so early LX and HX will be different. Part numbers from HX parts book confirm that pre ADR27A has part number 2824553, the same as LH and HQ, but post ADR27A it is 9936233. (Thanks Datto) Part number from LX parts book is 2824553 only.(Cheers Liz) There must be amendment bulletins out there somewhere referring to the post ADR27A LX Toranas.  A second small outlet from the thermostat housing was also added. This also provided hot water whether or not the thermostat was open. It served as a means for water to circulate when the thermostat and the cabin heater tap were closed.

 

 308 factory lx.jpg   105.84K   7 downloads

 

The next photo is of an unmolested A9X. Note the boss in the manifold where water heating has been deleted. It is also the only picture I have of the correct cabin heater inlet hose. All others have the hose bent around the accelerator cable bracket instead of it being preformed.

 

 308 water a9x.jpg   82.56K   17 downloads

 

 308 water a9x2.jpg   86.91K   12 downloads

Will post more in 10.

[Shiney005]

I am unsure what date the next pumps came about. It was not long after Holden introduced the clutch fan and bearing failures were being reported due to the extra weight hanging off the front of them. It was probably mid VH commodore. The new type pump was longer to facilitate the new bigger bearing. This in turn required a deeper set pulley so the belt still lined up with the alternator and bottom pulley. If someone has access to a WB or VK parts book I would like to know the part numbers for them. Also, somewhere along the commodore timeline the pumps were changed again and had a steel plate that went between the timing cover and the pump.

 

 308 water big.jpg   69.18K   4 downloads

 

Next two pics stolen from Rexy.

 

 308 water rexy (1).jpg   65.73K   5 downloads

 308 water rexy (2).jpg   60.88K   8 downloads

 

 308 vn.jpg   75.01K   5 downloads

 

The service manuals are useless for identifying the different pumps.

 

The LH one shows the same pictures as the HQ one with the separated water inlets (HT) on one page, then it shows the Chev water pump on the next.

 308 lh service manual m37458.jpg   40.8K   5 downloads

 

LX manual shows the pump with the blind inlet.(LH)

 308 LX manual.jpg   87.24K   3 downloads

 

The VB VK one shows the same one.

 308 vb vk 1.5 outlet.jpg   36.26K   5 downloads

 

The VP manual looks like it gets it right.

 

 308 VP service manual.jpg   95.55K   5 downloads

 

The early pumps were rebuildable with a kit available from Holden that included the bearing, seal and impeller. I'm not sure about the later ones. Holden even had an exchange system where you could bring your old one in and they would swap it for a rebuilt one.

 

 308 water exchange accelerator aug 74.jpg   99.68K   5 downloads

 

If you were restoring a car and wanted to retain your old pump, I can see no reason why you couldn't buy an aftermarket one, press off the impeller, remove the shaft, bearing, and seal, and use the parts to rebuild the original body.

Speaking of aftermarket, some are good, (from Australia or Japan) and some are not. (India, China) Some people believe that pumps with the pressed steel impeller don't flow as well as the ones with the cast iron one, but I think this is due to the cheap and nasty pumps all running the pressed type. The "Gates" (Aus) pump with the pressed impeller has worked fine for me on a 450 HP motor that had a rev limit of 7,500, so it should do the job on most cars.

 

 308 water gates pressed impeller.jpg   19.51K   5 downloads

 

If you can't go past a cast iron impeller, then "GMB" (Japan) make a good pump as well.

There is also "Endurotec" mentioned in the ad below but I haven't heard of them.

 

 308 p.PNG   431.69K   9 downloads

I'm sure Datto will elaborate on the aftermarket gear as he knows more than most on the subject.

[Cook]

Laurie, Here is the part numbers ofr WB water pumps.  Hope it works as I had to copy and scan.  Cheers Ron

Attached Files

•  WB Water Pump Part Numbers.pdf   367.16K   24 downloads

[Shiney005]

Yep. Got it. Cheers. I'll try and convert it to a jpeg image so we can get it up in the thread.

[Shiney005]

This is from the WB parts book.

 308 WB Parts.PNG   101.96K   4 downloads

It is interesting to see if these new part numbers concur with the VH Commodore. You can see that the rebuild kit was still available.

Also, as you can see below, there were two versions of the short as well as the current (for the time) long shaft.  What was ADR 28A? The only reference I can find is to do with vehicle noise.

 308 WB Parts2.PNG   107.08K   3 downloads

[Dr Terry]

Well done Laurie, it's good to see good thorough logical research.

 

AFAIK ADR28A was an rule limiting engine noise, where they changed fan blade design, which must have necessitated a better/stronger/larger water pump bearing, for both 6-cyl & V8. ADR28A was dated 1/1/81, so midway thru VC & WB series 1.

 

The way I see it, the part numbers are as follows:-

 

HT/HG - 7434747 (one outlet either side)

HQ - 2824553 (One outlet pass.side) - 2 types of castings, but interchangeable.

HJ/LH & early LX (Up to June 76) - 9939822 (Looks the same as 2824553) 

HX/HZ/VB, late LX & early WB (July 76 to Dec 80)- 9936233/92009639 (2 Outlets pass. side)

late WB/VC & VH to VT (Jan 81 Onwards)-   92014563 (2 Outlets & larger bearing)

 

So this results in 6 part numbers for 4 different styles of water pump, where these days 2 will do the job.

 

If my memory serves me correctly M38239 was a service kit (bearing & seal assy) to overhaul the pump. It wasn't the part number of a complete pump. Back in those days labour time was cheap, was overhauling water pumps was common.

 

Also it is common for GM-H parts to have a casting part no. & book part no. that are slightly different, this is because the cast no. is for the bare housing (often not sold separately) & the book part no. is for the assembly.

 

Does anyone know what the difference between 2824553 & 9939822 actually is ?

 

Likewise, is there any difference between 9936233 & 92009693 ?

 

It is also interesting to see that the part number for the July 1976 ADR27A pump (9936233) is earlier than the 1974 upgrade pump (9939822)

 

Dr Terry

 

P.S. I don't quite understand by what you mean by "There was a change in inlet manifold design around the same time that the HJ and LH were released." As far as I can see you are just illustrating the difference in the inlet water plumbing between the 253 & 308 in the pre-ADR27A style manifolds. I wasn't aware of any plumbing changes around that time, other than the deletion of the threaded hole to the pass. side of the thermostat for HQ.

[Cook]

Here is the repair kit numbers for a WB.  Cheers Ron

Attached Files

•  WB Water Pump Repair Kit Parts Number.pdf   419.41K   8 downloads

[arrimar]

I agree with Dr Terry, nice post with good references and acknowledgmment of sources. Well done.

Does anyone know what the difference between 2824553 & 9939822 actually is ?

The focus in the CAMS documentation is on the bearing housing (pulley hub is removed for clarity). Whilst not a great photo there appears to be what is possibly a circlip or a retainer(4 tabs in photo).
Of the two early pumps I have one has 4 notches near the bearing one doesn’t. Purely speculation but if it isn’t a better bearing then a bearing retainer for durability would be my guess. I'm not aware of failure in competition being an issue, might be worth following up on.

The LH parts book lists the 9939822 pump as L34 and 2824553 as standard 8 cyl pump.

Edited by arrimar, 03 June 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[Shiney005]

Well done Laurie, it's good to see good thorough logical research.

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. I don't quite understand by what you mean by "There was a change in inlet manifold design around the same time that the HJ and LH were released." As far as I can see you are just illustrating the difference in the inlet water plumbing between the 253 & 308 in the pre-ADR27A style manifolds. I wasn't aware of any plumbing changes around that time, other than the deletion of the threaded hole to the pass. side of the thermostat for HQ.

Thanks for the positive feedback from both yourself and Arrimar. It makes finding the hours to do it worthwhile.

 

Yes, it was the threaded hole that I was referring too, as well as the change on the right side from being a cast in hose barb to a bolt on one that terminates on an angle. The barb on the left side is also in a different position to the one on the red (253) manifold.

Attached Files

•  308 l34 s.PNG   93.28K   8 downloads
•  308 l34ss.PNG   80.08K   4 downloads

[Shiney005]

Of the two early pumps I have one has 4 notches near the bearing one doesn’t. Purely speculation but if it isn’t a better bearing then a bearing retainer for durability would be my guess. I'm not aware of failure in competition being an issue, might be worth following up on.
 

I'm not home to have a look at mine until tuesday. I actually thought when the cams bulletin mentioned "cover", that they were talking about the timing cover.

Something else to consider is the fact that the five pumps owned by myself and Arrimar have the part number 2824541 which isn't mentioned anywhere else above.

Can anyone show a picture of an early pump with any of the other part numbers? 7434747,  2824553,  9939822

Edited by Shiney005, 04 June 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[Shiney005]

Courtesy of Ron.

 308aa.PNG   402.55K   5 downloads

 308aaa.PNG   260.63K   4 downloads

[Cook]

Laurie,  Part #2824553 is a HX Statesman V8 water pump from what I have found.  Will try to upload but won't be until later today.  From a quick look at the catalogue it appears same as the VB image you posted. Cheers Ron

Edited by Cook, 04 June 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[arrimar]

I'm not home to have a look at mine until tuesday. I actually thought when the cams bulletin mentioned "cover", that they were talking about the timing cover.
Something else to consider is the fact that the five pumps owned by myself and Arrimar have the part number 2824541 which isn't mentioned anywhere else above.
Can anyone show a picture of an early pump with any of the other part numbers? 7434747, 2824553, 9939822

Part no.2824541 is listed as the pump body as opposed to pump complete.
Part no. 9939821 front cover isn't listed in the Sept 75 parts book nor the Aug 74 L34 supplement nor the Sept 74 update.

I have a theory but needs more research.

[Shiney005]

Rightio then. I just noticed that in Liz's LX parts book it has that number for the pump body, so I guess every pump from HQ to ADR 27A LX is going to have that number cast on the body. Somebody out there must have an original post ADR27A pump to clarify the number on one of those. I'm going to take a stab here and say it will be 92009640. (Same as WB short)

[TerrA LX]

I am unsure what date the next pumps came about. It was not long after Holden introduced the clutch fan and bearing failures were being reported due to the extra weight hanging off the front of them. It was probably mid VH commodore. The new type pump was longer to facilitate the new bigger bearing. This in turn required a deeper set pulley so the belt still lined up with the alternator and bottom pulley. If someone has access to a WB or VK parts book I would like to know the part numbers for them. Also, somewhere along the commodore timeline the pumps were changed again and had a steel plate that went between the timing cover and the pump.

I'm pretty sure that HJ/HZ started the two pump thing, one being the standard pump for non A/C cars and the other being the larger bearing pump for A/C equipt cars with the clutch fan.
The harmonic balancer is also different, having larger bolts to hold the triple V belt pully.

[Cook]

Laurie, Here is the parts list for the HX Statesman. As per my earlier post the image in the parts catalogue is the same as the one you posted for VB.  Cheers Ron

Attached Files

•  HX Statesman Water Pump Part Numbers.pdf   390.75K   8 downloads

[Shiney005]

. I'm going to take a stab here and say it will be 92009640. (Same as WB short)

Second stab.......... Looking at Rons HX Statesman parts book I reckon post ADR27A Toranas and HJ / HX  Holdens will have 9936232 cast into them.

 

I'm pretty sure that HJ/HZ started the two pump thing, one being the standard pump for non A/C cars and the other being the larger bearing pump for A/C equipt cars with the clutch fan.
The harmonic balancer is also different, having larger bolts to hold the triple V belt pully.

When did the clutch fan arrive on the scene though? I would have thought HZ at the earliest. And then it would have taken time for reports of bearing failures to make it back from service depts, and more time to develop and test the new pump.  I wonder if both pumps listed in the later parts books had the big bearing, with the only difference being the length.

[Shiney005]

HX Statesman Parts

 HX Statesman2.PNG   212.49K   3 downloads

 HX Statesman.PNG   194.34K   5 downloads

[TerrA LX]

Both the 308 HJ premier and HJ Statesman with factory A/C I had wore the Clutch fan and balancer I spoke of.
Sorry, I have not seen a factory HQ 308 with A/C to verify.

[rodomo]

Would explain the noise thing too?

[Shiney005]

Yeah, but that was ADR28A, not 27A. The first mention of 28A wasn't until the WB book.

[Dr Terry]

Yes, it was the threaded hole that I was referring too, as well as the change on the right side from being a cast in hose barb to a bolt on one that terminates on an angle. The barb on the left side is also in a different position to the one on the red (253) manifold.

This is my point. With pre-ADR27A manifolds (HT- HJ) ALL 308s get the bolt-on fitting on the driver's side, while the 253s got the barb. Also the cast barb on the pass side was in a different position for 253 vs 308.

 

Other than the extra (threaded) hole near the thermostat housing, AFAIK there were no other changes from HT to HJ.

 

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

When did the clutch fan arrive on the scene though? I would have thought HZ at the earliest. And then it would have taken time for reports of bearing failures to make it back from service depts, and more time to develop and test the new pump.  I wonder if both pumps listed in the later parts books had the big bearing, with the only difference being the length.

To my knowledge ALL V8s with A/Cond since HK have had a viscous fan clutch.

 

The only change to a larger bearing water pump was in 1/1/81 for WB/VC.

 

I have no idea what was changed between part number 9936233 & 92009693. They are both HX to early WB ADR27A pumps, which are dimensionally the same

 

Dr Terry

[Shiney005]

Other than the extra (threaded) hole near the thermostat housing, AFAIK there were no other changes from HT to HJ.

OK. Cool. I didn't know that.

 

The only change to a larger bearing water pump was in 1/1/81 for WB/VC.

I had only heard of the bigger bearing being fitted in response to failures due to the weight of the clutch fan from Smitty over at Aussie V8s. My Service Letters folder only goes as far as Oct 1978, but if anyone has them from 1981 we should be able to confirm why they were changed. I suppose that from HK to HZ, air con was less popular than when the Commodores came online, and therefore more failures were being reported in the lead up to the 1980s, prompting GMH to do something about it.