77 replies to this topic

[dascind]

About 6 or 7 years, those spring clip on clips could still be bought at the local Holden Dealer - one at Tuggerah NSW anyway.

Could be worth a ring around. Were only 2 or 3 dollars.

[ljv8]

Ugggggghhhhhhhh I spoke too soon, my clutch has turned horrid again!  Was okay when first fixed, taken out for a few drives since then and turns out when it gets hot it goes back to not wanting to engage first and hard to get into 2nd and third, and crunchy and grind into reverse.  

 

I checked my repair job on the pedal and it's still firm so nothing has broken.  What I have noticed is when the pedal is released the little pull cable from the pedal to the rat has about 10mm of free play.  Meaning I can grab that rod and move it up and down, which means there is slack in the system and loosing a bit of travel. 

 

Also had someone sit inside and push the pedal through it's full motion and video'd the rat trap.  Unfortunately I can't get the videos small enough to upload with the 1.95MB limit.  In it's full motion it barely seems to push the arm more than about 10-15mm.  It just looks wrong to me, the length the pedal moves does not translate to much push on the rod. 

 

It looks to have a lot of flex toward the engine before it starts to activate the pushrod.  I did notice the main thick arm that connects to the bracket that bolts to the chassis rail, the rubber inside looked a little cracked.  Maybe I should remove the rubber and solid mount it.  I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and pull the box out to check the clutch, pressure plate, and fork. 

 

Not as good as a video but took screen shots of the videos showing the motion.  Is it normal to have such a small amount of movement of the push rod.  To me I think this is my issue, there is just not enough leverage on the pushrod.

 

If you save the pictures locally and cycle back and forth between them you can see the start and end of the motion, which is minuscule. 

 

Clutch released.

 01 clutch released.png   458.75K   2 downloads

 

Clutch engaged.  See lack of travel.  You can also see in this pic that the push rod is resting on the cross member and is scratching the paint.  I thought it was meant to sit a cm or so away from the cross member. 

 01 Clutch Engaged.png   397.13K   2 downloads

 

Clutch released

 02 Clutch Released.png   464.63K   1 downloads

 

Clutch engaged

 02 Clutch Engaged.png   458.61K   1 downloads

 

 

I'm at the point of looking at my hydraulic options, this trap is doing my head in.  I will check everything first, i.e throwout fork, clutch plate direction, pressure plate etc before throwing down any cash. 

 

I'm guessing the CRS kit is pretty common having been around for donkies.  Cheapest option but not a lot of detail of what's included or how it's fitted end to end.  Will have to give them a call. 

https://www.rodshop....gines-only.html

 

Dellow kit looks complete but price starting to climb.

https://dellowconver...ch-kit-lc-lj-2/

 

Probably the cleanest and most complete option, but with the pedal kit and hose its over $1k.  Ouch. 

https://malwoodauto....pedal-assembly/

 

 

 

 

[S pack]

Time to pull the clutch assy out of the car and check or have the pressure plate checked. You have removed all the unwanted free play in the rat trap assy so a faulty pressure plate seems to be the logical conclusion to me.

The diaphragm fingers in the pic of the pressure plate you posted earlier in this thread appear to be sitting very flat instead of a slight conical shape to my eyes or it is just the photo doesn't show it very well.

Edited by S pack, 02 December 2020 - 05:01 PM.

[ljv8]

Thanks Dave yeah I have a feeling your right. She will be back on the stands and the box is coming out.

[dron]

Hi

      Just a thought , What is the push rod doing sitting on the cross member when the clutch is engaged. If at that point the cable is loose (Rod from linkage to peddle) then that would be why you do not have full travel.   Tha fork may be wrong or bent, Thrust bearing or cluch pressour plate problem, Or the cable it to long.  Too long ago to rember all about the rat trap clutch, I had one on a HJ and modifyed a 6cyl one to fit a V8 WB I built and apart from the need for regular andjutments they allways worked.

[ljv8]

This is the mech that came out of my first LJ. It looks much more solid and don’t recall having issues with my clutch way back then. Any idea what it’s off I’m guessing maybe HT given the odd bell housing bracket I had?

 D7DB38B4-DC8D-4691-99F4-107F5EFA5EA6.jpeg   874.03K   1 downloads

 C657ECDF-4F73-4AE2-8C51-821BD64181C9.jpeg   1.09MB   2 downloads

[ljv8]

Thanks Darren it’s resting on the crossmember when not engaged as per first photo. Yeah agree fork will be checked also. Something isn’t quite right and the only option is to tear it all down and check everything.

[S pack]

 LJ rat trap hotch potch.jpeg   127.28K   2 downloads

 

On some cars the relay levers seem to sit close to the crossmember and others don't.

My brothers LJ 4dr the relay lever touched the crossmember like yours and worked perfectly fine.

Mine sits away from the crossmember about 10mm.

[ljv8]

Thanks Dave for identifying all the parts.  Yeah considering you identified it's a hybrid is most likely a home made job with what parts they had at the time to get the job done.

 

Ok thanks for verifying in regards to the relay lever touching the cross member and generally not having an effect on operation, good to know. 

[claysummers]

Chinese master cylinder in the dellow kit looking at that photo.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[grumpy xu1]

I have sent Dave a photo of the whole correct lc/lj rat trap, when he posts it, you will see what needs changing mate. I believe that if you had all the correct parts, you would get better adjustment than what you do have now.

[grumpy xu1]

I'm not fussed on the design of the rat trap mechanism, but with the correct parts, if you restore them properly, it will be much better than what you have, probably no worse than the hydraulic set up. The arm that bolts on the bracket that gets bolted to the drivers chassis rail, has to have some sort of bushing in it aswell.

[ljv8]

Hey thanks Gary for that much appreciated mate. 

[ljv8]

I stuffed up .  Looks like the core of my clutch issue was "user error".  

 

Ok got the box out, and the issue was obvious once I pulled the bell housing and the external retainer spring off the clutch fork.  The fork literally flung out and I realised I had put the socket retainer spring back on incorrectly after I cleaned the fork.

 

 Fork it 02.png   549.07K   1 downloads

 

I didn't hook the end over the throw out carrier valley before assembling.  I'm surprised I didn't pick it up during assembly, must have been off with the fairies! 

 Fork it 01.png   495.6K   1 downloads

 

When I put it side by side with my spare grotty, welded up cracked fork the spring location issue was clear.  Also the fork I have been using has no cracks and is not bent which is good.

 Fork it 03.png   507.7K   1 downloads

 

I started thinking maybe it fell out when I was muscling the box out from the car, but I went back and looked at my assembly photos, and there is the fork on the bench with the spring retainer incorrectly fitted.

 

Oh well, won't be making that mistake again.  This way it was not securely held on the socket ball, and guessing I was losing about 10-15mm of movement.  I think there is a very very good chance this is the reason for my clutch issues.  Pressure plate is the right way around, and I have repaired my clutch pedal, and all the slack has been taken out of my poor "verbally abused" rat trap, so this must be it. 

 

Will put it all together and see how it goes, but I'm guessing (hoping) it's problem solved.

 

Also found a few leaks from the M20 so will take the chance to replace the rear seal, and the shifter o rings where it's weeping oil. 

[S pack]

Still reckon your issue is a faulty pressure plate. Pull the clutch pressure plate and clutch plate off  the flywheel and have them checked. Do it all and do it once.

[S pack]

You can see in this image the fork has been running on the ball stud so this is not your lack of complete disengagement issue.

The spring is there to keep the fork in contact with the ball to prevent rattles. Having the anti-rattle spring installed incorrectly will not prevent the fork from working correctly.

[ljv8]

Ok thanks Dave for the info, I was going to bolt it back up but yeah I should do that and not waste any more time.

I will take it back to the place I brought it and have him check it. It had been bolted to the flywheel for 6-7 years with no use so who knows what affect that could have.

Your right at least if it’s checked it’s one less thing to need to consider.

[TOERUNNER]

 IMG_1587.JPG   162.17K   0 downloads

Cool thanks Dave, I think I may have found the issue which you helped twig my curiosity from a past post.

 

Last night I was reading every post I could find on clutch issues.  This morning I took off the inspection cover and pushed the clutch pedal to the floor, and propped the pedal down with a good old club lock.  Got underneath and it wasn't released fully but most of all I noticed the rat trap push rod barely moved 1cm.  When I released the pedal the cable/rod that connects the pedal to the rat trap was loose.  Got inside and giggled the lever on the pedal and it had lots of play. 

 

http://www.gmh-toran...-end-lc-torana/

You gave the advice: Also check the clutch rod anchor pin on the clutch pedal. It may be half worn through.

 

Pulled the pedal out and low and behold we have a bucket load of wear on the pin and arm.
Clutch pedal.png

 

Unfortunately Rares don't have stock of the replacement clutch control 2809745 until after Christmas.  Doesn't matter will weld up the pin and smoothen it out, and weld up the control arm and re-drill it. 

 

So thanks mate for your wisdom past and present

 

Think I'm heading towards happy days!

 

 

That's good news mate, i will be pulling my pedals out this weekend so i will definitely be checking my clutch pedal for any wear

Yep my pedal is the same

[S pack]

Ok thanks Dave for the info, I was going to bolt it back up but yeah I should do that and not waste any more time.

I will take it back to the place I brought it and have him check it. It had been bolted to the flywheel for 6-7 years with no use so who knows what affect that could have.

Your right at least if it’s checked it’s one less thing to need to consider.

Being bolted to the flywheel for 7 years won't cause any issues other than the clutch plate may have stuck itself to the flywheel.

If the pressure plate is the problem then it was either a dud straight out of the box or the person installing it may have done something that has contributed to the problem occurring.
 

[dascind]

Also check where Cevis Clip goes on pedal under dash is ok. By that, I mean the round rod part that extends out off the pedal can get grooved by repeated use - mine did - caused all sorts problems - bloody hard on the back and neck to look up underneath though.

Cheers

[ljv8]

Hey mate yeah both the pin and clutch control arm were worn and welded up as per a previous entry. 

 

Does anyone by any chance have a GM (un-worn) or Rares anchor clutch control for the clutch pedal they can measure the center to center holes for me?  I welded up the big oval hole and took a guess where the original hole was, but if this was a few mm out or more it would affect the take-up position. 

 

If Rares had stock I would just buy one but they are out of stock in Vic, so weld and drill is the only option.  I just want to re-check I didn't drill the hole too high making the pedal take up longer. 

 

If anyone has an un-worn anchor clutch control and can measure the center to center holes it would be greatly appreciated.

 Anchor Clutch Control.jpg   106.27K   2 downloads

[S pack]

52mm

[Bazza]

Hi

 

NOS one I have is bang on 2 inches (50.8 mm).

 

Cheers

 

Bazza

[ljv8]

Thanks Dave and Bazza much appreciated.  Will check mine now. 

[ljv8]

Ok took the pedal off again, and the pedal clutch rod control measured 55mm center to center.  The clutch rod control on my rat trap measured exactly 2", I must have arsed that one when I repaired it some time ago.

 

Thanks guy's, will re-weld and drill at 2". 

 

It explains one part why there was some movement in my control rod at rest.  The other part is my control cable is stretched by 4mm. 

 

2mm here, 4mm there it all adds up to less take up at the fork. 

 

 

Attached Files

•  New and Old rod Differences.png   497.2K   1 downloads
•  Old Rod End 01.png   469.08K   0 downloads
•  New Rod End 01.png   484.06K   0 downloads
•  Ball 01.png   495.5K   0 downloads