56 replies to this topic

[Bigfella237]

We're wandering off topic but nobody's mentioned ALSO fusing the ground wire of the load if it runs back to the battery (-) terminal.

 

Why?

 

Because if you run the positive and negative feed for something directly off the battery terminals (let's say a CB radio), and at some later time the car's main ground/earth lead from the battery to the body fails, then it's possible that everything else that relies on a body earth will try to find a path back to the battery through your flimsy little black wire!

 

Which brings us back to protecting that little black wire with a fusible link (as well as the red).

[UCgazman]

it's possible that everything else that relies on a body earth will try to find a path back to the battery through your flimsy little black wire!

Or your choke cable starts glowing red

[Shiney005]

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[Rockoz]

We're wandering off topic but nobody's mentioned ALSO fusing the ground wire of the load if it runs back to the battery (-) terminal.

 

Why?

 

Because if you run the positive and negative feed for something directly off the battery terminals (let's say a CB radio), and at some later time the car's main ground/earth lead from the battery to the body fails, then it's possible that everything else that relies on a body earth will try to find a path back to the battery through your flimsy little black wire!

 

Which brings us back to protecting that little black wire with a fusible link (as well as the red).

 

Having helped people out with electrical stuff on their cars, adding a fuse to the negative side would seriously overcomplicate things.

Some are flat out dealing with a single fuse to check properly.

 

Proper electrical stuff doesnt fuse or add controls to the return path of a circuit.

Unless you are a refrigeration mechanic pretending to know about electricals.

 

But I do see your point.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[UCgazman]

Opinions? Have I missed anything?

Only thing I think it needs is the numbers for the wire gauge / thickness for the red & black wires...

 ULX A9X Electric Fan.png   1.49MB   14 downloads

[hanra]

Does the relay really take its supply from the B+ on the alternator when the + on the battery is 2 foot closer?

Is that anti dieseling solenoid taking the supply straight to ground? Should it be shown to switch the ground internally. Like the radiator switch does.

Edited by hanra, 15 June 2022 - 06:50 AM.

[RallyRed]

Thinking the solenoid is drawn ok. ( as per a normal solenoid, supply one side, the coil that does the work in the middle, the return wire on the other side.)

[Rockoz]

Looks great.

Perhaps add the terminal numbers on the relay for the dummies.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Dr Terry]

Yes, I was going to add the bit about the terminal numbers. I believe they are the standard DIN numbers 30, 85, 86, 87.

 

Also the short wire between the solenoid & its connector is also a short piece of green wire.

 

Other than that it looks great. Good work once again UCgazman.

 

Dr Terry

[Shiney005]

Yes, I was going to add the bit about the terminal numbers. I believe they are the standard DIN numbers 30, 85, 86, 87.

 

 

Dr Terry

I had to hotwire an electric fuel pump on a VW Amarok a few days ago because the owner filled it with petrol and there was no bung in the bottom of the tank. The wiring to the pump was inaccessible so I thought I would pull the relay and bridge the 30 and 87 pins to get the power through. Even though the Amarok is German (where the DIN system comes from) I was suprised to see the pins on the relay numbered 1,2,3,4,and 5. 

[Rockoz]

I had to hotwire an electric fuel pump on a VW Amarok a few days ago because the owner filled it with petrol and there was no bung in the bottom of the tank. The wiring to the pump was inaccessible so I thought I would pull the relay and bridge the 30 and 87 pins to get the power through. Even though the Amarok is German (where the DIN system comes from) I was suprised to see the pins on the relay numbered 1,2,3,4,and 5. 

 

I think perhaps the numbers might have been a Hella construct originally.

A lot of other manufacturers then used the same numbers.

When I was doing the wiring to convert my Tojo from 24V to 12V for the LS1, there was about 6 relays I needed to change out.

A single relay type could have done every relay originally, and I used common relays to replace them.

But there were 6 different types of relays, and none of them had the same numbering system on them.

I had to pull the covers off each one to work out the connections to convert them to standard type relays.

 

Engineers at work again no doubt, re inventing the wheel at every opportunity.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Dr Terry]

Yeah, you're right about that.

 

The DIN standard is one thing, but the Yanks, the Poms, the Japs & the Koreans all do it their own way. Also, as mentioned by Shiney005, even some of the Germans do their own thing.

 

The other annoying thing is the 2 different relay base layouts for the commonplace 4/5-pin mini relay. I see they now call the 'normal'm one the ISO style & the other 'Hella' version, the non-ISO style. I see so many relays wrongly fitted for this reason alone.

 

Dr Terry

[Shiney005]

Engineers at work again no doubt, re inventing the wheel at every opportunity.

Got to keep themselves in a job somehow.

 

Hey Garth, I can't find a copy of the LH drawing in here that has been scanned with enough resolution to blow up to A3. If you have one and want to send it through, I will get it printed and laminated for you as well as a copy of the LX, UC, Sports Dash, and the yet to be finalised A9X fan.

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[hanra]

What does that anti dieseling solenoid do? How does it operate? 

[Rockoz]

From memory, the idle setting is done when the solenoid is extended.

When the ignition is off, it retracts and shuts the butterflys off completely.

Pretty much stops any air from getting in to the intake.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Bigfella237]

What does that anti dieseling solenoid do? How does it operate? 

"Dieseling" is named after diesel engines (well, duh), which of course, don't have spark plugs.

 

Diesels rely on the fuel/air charge to spontaneously combust once compressed to a certain point (due to the temperature rising) rather than a spark plug igniting the mixture. (This is why diesel engines have such huge compression ratios.)

 

Back in the good old days of leaded petrol, lead deposits could build-up in the combustion chamber and if the engine was hot enough, these lead deposits glowed red-hot and could actually continue to ignite the fuel charge of a petrol engine even if the ignition is cut.

 

Meaning you couldn't shut down the engine. Even when the key was turned off the engine kept running, albeit very roughly and usually knocking like a bastard from pre-detonation. Ford Cleveland V8's were infamous for this when hot.

 

So, just cutting off power to the the ignition wasn't enough, they needed some way to completely cut off the engine's air/fuel supply...

 

Enter anti-dieseling solenoids.

[UCgazman]

Yes, I was going to add the bit about the terminal numbers. I believe they are the standard DIN numbers 30, 85, 86, 87.

 

Also the short wire between the solenoid & its connector is also a short piece of green wire.

 

Other than that it looks great. Good work once again UCgazman.

 

Dr Terry

 

I'll add the terminal numbers for the relay. I also noticed that short green wire on the solenoid - I'll have to change that on the main lx diagram too.

 

Got to keep themselves in a job somehow.

 

Hey Garth, I can't find a copy of the LH drawing in here that has been scanned with enough resolution to blow up to A3. If you have one and want to send it through, I will get it printed and laminated for you as well as a copy of the LX, UC, Sports Dash, and the yet to be finalised A9X fan.

IMG_5170small.jpg

They look great! I think I've got the original LH diagram on PDF, I'll post it up when I get home (at work atm)

[hanra]

Ill try and re-scan the copy that I have and see if I can get higher resolution. This file is 851kb

 

https://1drv.ms/b/s!...jMCa1nNYyCQZ0Ig

 

[UCgazman]

I added a bigger version of that LH diagram - http://www.gmh-toran...-2#entry1087206

[UCgazman]

Any wire gauge experts around? I'm thinking the main power and earth for the fan is 12g - looks the same size as the +12v red wire from battery to alternator on the main loom (which I know is 12g)...

[Dr Terry]

Any wire gauge experts around? I'm thinking the main power and earth for the fan is 12g - looks the same size as the +12v red wire from battery to alternator on the main loom (which I know is 12g)...

I've located a factory wiring schematic for the HZ & it has a fan wired for the a/cond condenser in similar fashion to the A9X. The power wires for the fan (to & from the relay) are listed as 16G. I would've used 14G, if I had designed it.

 

Dr Terry

[Shiney005]

Ill try and re-scan the copy that I have and see if I can get higher resolution. This file is 851kb

 

https://1drv.ms/b/s!...jMCa1nNYyCQZ0Ig

 

 

I added a bigger version of that LH diagram - http://www.gmh-toran...-2#entry1087206

It looks like Brads is the better version, but I was mistaken when I said A3. It is actually A1 that we are printing them in, and even Brads isn't clear enough for that. I will just have to try and dig my manual out from one of 100 boxes I shoved everything into before the move and have a crack at getting it scanned.

[hanra]

Ive realised work has gotten rid of our A3 printer in the workshop. Ill have another go next week, when I locate another A3 printer. I thought I did scan it as high as I could at the time. But that was 2017 I think. 

[UCgazman]

I've located a factory wiring schematic for the HZ & it has a fan wired for the a/cond condenser in similar fashion to the A9X. The power wires for the fan (to & from the relay) are listed as 16G. I would've used 14G, if I had designed it.

 

Dr Terry

I thought the wires in some of those pics looked thicker, it's hard to be sure without being there. I'll mark them 16G as per HZ, and I can change it easy enough later if we're wrong!

[UCgazman]

All done and posted in the LX wiring thread - http://www.gmh-toran...gram/?p=1087235

 

On another note - Dr Terry and I were talking about separating the LX Schematic into a pre adr27A and post adr27A diagram, to make it a bit easier to read. Let me know if you'd be keen to see that...

Edited by UCgazman, 17 June 2022 - 04:16 PM.