38 replies to this topic

[Pallbag]

If your selling/buying a car and it does not have the orignal engine in it, does it really matter if the replacement engine is the same pefix and similar code?

Currently trying to sell my SLR5000, and it does not have the original engine in it anymore (have receipts to say an exchange engine was installed), also houses a 9 inch and so far only one person who has enquired is trying to convince me that a correctly dated engine is so important he does not like it.

No problem to me, I am not trying to convince him otherwise, he does not have to buy it if he does not like the price, but what does the greater community think:

If not the orignal engine, does it matter which engine is in the vehicle?

Should it make a difference if a simlarly dated engine is in the vehicle if the orignal engine is no longer available?

Meh, get in an drive it!

 

 

[RallyRed]

Hi Paul,

 

I voted for "if not  the original, then a close date" option.

 

But this really is more related to the XU1 & L34 where I am assuming the closely dated engine may have the same bits inside as the original engine.

As for SLR5000's , my understanding is that they were a stock 308, thus the close date is not so important ( to me at least).

Big picture - once the factory fitted engine is lost, then any other engine is, well,  any other engine.

Back in the day when I had my SLR5000, I had no idea what the engine number was, and didn't care. That has changed with the $$ appreciation of these  cars.

Like you said, if the purchaser is wanting an original engine, then any other engine will detract.....just means they aren't the right buyer?

[Pallbag]

Thanks Col .... I wasn't sure if the vote came up or not, can see it now.

 

[tsn007]

depends on the buyer or the person rebuilding the car , as to how orignal you want it

 

 

My SLR5000 was bought without the motor, i purchased an NT prefix block (warranty block) instead 

[V-SLR5000-P]

I had a November 1974 SLR/5000 which had a QT engine when l acquired it. This was not a massive issue as it also had a Toploader gearbox and nine inch. I did have a bare NT block which l was going to build up as a replacement. However l came across a complete HT engine numbered under 600 away from my original motor which l considered a better option. In this instance without the original owner documents or access to factory records no one would identify that the replacement HT engine was not the original.

[Shiney005]

I reckon Col is on point here, except I voted for a correctly prefixed motor, without much thought for the date code. This was mainly because I always have L34's at the forefront of my thinking and a HZ block is essential as it is one of the most important bits Holden had built up until then.  Other people are thinking the same way. I have seen the Holden stamps used for re stamping engine numbers, and also know of two "HZ" blocks with fake cast dates.

I guess it would be a similar situation with late XU1's.  And with SL/R 5000's now commanding six figure sums, I would say that a HT block is getting more important as well.

[tuxedoss]

I don’t have the original block for my SS but have all the original paper work so I know the number . There is pretty much zero chance of finding the original , no doubt it probably takes some value Off the car. my thought is if it’s not the original motor then it’s pointless . Can’t see the point in using some other HT prefix or even an NT prefix as neither were the original motor and is no different to any QT motor . I could actually stamp my original HT engine number as I decked the block and number is totally gone . But again what’s the point , it’s very easy to tell a re stamp

[Rockoz]

If you dont have the original engine, then you dont have the original engine. End of story as far as I am concerned.

But I live more in a binary world than most.

Yes or no are acceptable answers. Maybe isnt.

Having a close numbered engine falls into the realms of a maybe answer.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[MFM]

This ideology (original engine) has really only become important since these cars became expensive. As RallyRed pointed out we didn't really care that much back in the 80's because we never thought they would fetch the crazy prices they do today (otherwise we would all have filled our back yards with these cars and parts).I'm a purist (rivet counter) ,so believe in not only bringing these cars back to original but to leave them alone; warts and all (this can and has cause some interesting debates). From my limited observation there seems to be many many if not most top tier cars out there with non original engines which are still pulling good coin.

[caterham2]

Showing my age here, but "back in the day" changeover/ exchange engines , call them what you will were available absolutely everywhere. Promoted on the basis of drop car in on the morning, we run you to work/ station, come back about 5 PM and ready to go. 50 years on I reckon it is drawing a long bow to expect an original block in the engine bay. Remember these cars were disposable like everything else, no one could have foreseen the number of anal retentive s getting their knickers twisted over stamped numbers  like this.

Edited by caterham2, 04 September 2022 - 03:46 PM.

[caterham2]

This ideology (original engine) has really only become important since these cars became expensive. As RallyRed pointed out we didn't really care that much back in the 80's because we never thought they would fetch the crazy prices they do today (otherwise we would all have filled our back yards with these cars and parts).I'm a purist (rivet counter) ,so believe in not only bringing these cars back to original but to leave them alone; warts and all (this can and has cause some interesting debates). From my limited observation there seems to be many many if not most top tier cars out there with non original engines which are still pulling good coin.

The recently offered Brock Torana at Shannons did not have a JP motor, and a BIG price being asked .

[arrimar]

Some who demand everything as it was are prepared to pay.

Anything less is worth less to those.
Anything with an LS is not the old experience they remember so may az wdll be a VN. Simples.

[skap]

Some who demand everything as it was are prepared to pay.

Anything less is worth less to those.
Anything with an LS is not the old experience they remember so may az wdll be a VN. Simples.

 

 

Since when did a VN come with an LS?... 

[MFM]

Showing my age here, but "back in the day" changeover/ exchange engines , call them what you will were available absolutely everywhere. Promoted on the basis of drop car in on the morning, we run you to work/ station, come back about 5 PM and ready to go. 50 years on I reckon it is drawing a long bow to expect an original block in the engine bay. Remember these cars were disposable like everything else, no one could have foreseen the number of anal retentive s getting their knickers twisted over stamped numbers  like this.

Having the benefit of older age (60), I don't think the top tier cars were ever considered disposable back in the 80's and 90's.They were still considered a rarity and sought after, in fact I recall going to a car crash back in the mid 80's as a cop on the Gold Coast where this XU1 was T Boned at an intersection (written off). I interviewed the driver of the XU1 who was in tears sitting in the gutter, proclaiming he looked all over the country to find his genuine car he was driving. They were still considered 'special' even back then and priced accordingly (although not in the league of today's prices). I'm sure the Charger and GT Ford owners could tell similar stories. The average bloke cannot afford these cars nowadays, and those that can afford to pay the current prices expect matching/authentic numbers so that their investment will maintain its value for when they decide to sell.

[skap]

Not sure older age is a benefit, though I somewhat agree. 

 

i am sure for every upset enthusiast there was another 20 blokes who just wanted what was cool at the time and hammered it, then flogged them off, moved on to the next "hip" thing.

 

Be interesting to see how they perform as an investment over the next 10-20 years. 

[grumpy xu1]

Since when did a VN come with an LS?... 

Since they become fast, without having to spend 50 grand on a 304 !

[grumpy xu1]

A real enthusiast, doesn't consider resale in my honest opinion ! I leave that for the dickheads that call themselves custodians of these cars. & drink $8 coffee's. I'm the owner. I still like to keep my newer gm's fairly genuine aswell. But it wasn't always like that. I'm happy the car's that i assist in restoring get factory finish work though.

[LCK186]

Paul hi, no it doesnt matter weather it has its original engine, after all these engines were blown up and exchanged moons ago, the difference now is the value of the 2 cars eg for the SLR 5000 lets say

 

with its original HT engine good clean car price 150.000, now the other SLR 5000 less the original engine good clean car everything identical to the other, car the no would be 120.000,

[Statler]

This whole matching numbers stuff is ok for the Ford guys , but unless us Holden guys have irrefutable proof of the 'factory' fitted engine , how are you going to prove that the engine in your Holden is indeed 'factory fitted'? 

 

And even if the casting date code is close to matching , who is going to disprove it? 

 

It would be nice if every car had the engine # recorded at service , or even if the engine # & chassis # were printed in the owners manual , but they aren't! 

 

If someone had a lifetime to spare & access to each States rego records you could possibly match engine #'s to chassis , but i can't see that happening in a hurry. 

[Pallbag]

Paul hi, no it doesnt matter weather it has its original engine, after all these engines were blown up and exchanged moons ago, the difference now is the value of the 2 cars eg for the SLR 5000 lets say

 

with its original HT engine good clean car price 150.000, now the other SLR 5000 less the original engine good clean car everything identical to the other, car the no would be 120.000,

So if that were the case, you'd value the original engine to a specific car worth $30k?

[Bruiser]

Everyone’s perspective looks as right as everyone else’s to me here
All the limited edition rippers like fjord GT’s, E49s, A9Xs, XU-1s,
L34, SLR5000 etc
Are become rarer and more sought after and special.
In this antiques roadshow world we are in, special cars become more
“special” if they are all matching numbers
It didn’t matter in the past, and may not matter again in the future
So does “special” mean the same as “ more valuable on the market?”
Or “It’s my dream car and I just love it how it is”

[hanra]

This whole matching numbers stuff is ok for the Ford guys , but unless us Holden guys have irrefutable proof of the 'factory' fitted engine , how are you going to prove that the engine in your Holden is indeed 'factory fitted'?

And even if the casting date code is close to matching , who is going to disprove it?

It would be nice if every car had the engine # recorded at service , or even if the engine # & chassis # were printed in the owners manual , but they aren't!

If someone had a lifetime to spare & access to each States rego records you could possibly match engine #'s to chassis , but i can't see that happening in a hurry.

Holden gave me my engine # information with my letter of authenticity. And HHS also did the same. Fortunately it was same as what was in the engine bay.

[LCK186]

Paul hi yes i think  around the 30k mark, no doubt in my mind, i have a friend who owns a 77 lx 5000 less original engine, so he shopped around, he found an NT block which to me is the next best thing,if u have an NT block it would be way less than 30K

Slater hi Holden did put chassis and engine number in the owners guide book, along with the vin and body serial number, and yes u could have Holden to verify the SLR 5000 or the XU1 torana 

and yes if the torana never had its 1st service then the engine number would not be along side your vin,but that is only a small margin of cars

Bruiser i agree with you

[Shiney005]

Slater hi Holden did put chassis and engine number in the owners guide book, along with the vin and body serial number, and yes u could have Holden to verify the SLR 5000 or the XU1 torana 

You mean this thing?  There have been blank forgeries for sale for years now. Not too hard to to stick one in a typewriter and fill it in with whatever you want.

 

 AMCS a29.JPG   96.56K   12 downloads

[Shiney005]

Holden gave me my engine # information with my letter of authenticity. And HHS also did the same. Fortunately it was same as what was in the engine bay.

Not all of the numbers are there Brad. If the L34's are anything to go by, I reckon about 15% are missing. (Those that didn't get the first service)