30 replies to this topic

[hanra]

I’ve never had a front end wheel alignment done on my car since I totally rebuilt the front end. I can’t trust anyone to work on it. And it’s very hard to find anyone skilled in old cars around here.

It drives straight.

However the front tyres look pretty chopped out for only doing 2500klms over the past 10 years. No windy stuff. Only basic highway driving @ 80kph & main road 60kph. Occasional 100kph. I drive it like an old man if/when I drive it.

Do these front tyres give any indication as to what’s what in the front end?

These are the Left and Right tyres as would be fitted to the car.  B1CE0F75-132B-4019-BA04-C7F68A053A98.jpeg   123.17K   7 downloads  76CEFBEC-64C5-439C-8093-E10DFC1AF769.jpeg   115.55K   6 downloads  D6763F00-5864-43CD-BDC1-5BA8D0E43C59.jpeg   124.69K   2 downloads

Edited by hanra, 26 October 2023 - 06:18 PM.

[RallyRed]

No expert...... but  looks like too much toe in? or not enough camber?  ( assuming the tires are diplayed as they would bolt on if you just rolled them to the front of the car ).

 

Grab a digital spirit level and check the camber ( easy) , and you can do a simple string line from rear wheels to front wheels ( each side) to get an idea of toe. 

I also agree, the people at some of these places seem to have no idea regarding just what it is they are doing, they just do what the computer tells them to do.

Edited by RallyRed, 26 October 2023 - 06:27 PM.

[hanra]

Correct. Tyres are as if rolled off the car.

[76lxhatch]

It does look like there might be a bit too much toe in.

 

I do my own wheel alignments with a three-legged thingo that sits against the wheel rim, digital angle finder, laser pointer and tape measure. Its easy to get fairly accurate results with a little time and care. No mucking around with places that won't change shims, and no need to work next to hot exhaust.

[claysummers]

Have to agree with Col. Looks like positive caster or too much toe in if you haven't been hard cornering. Toe is easy to measure, but less so in a lowered car.

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[TOERUNNER]

too much toe in

[LCK186]

HI easy fix, book the torana for a electronic wheel aligment its that easy, if you are gonna keep those tyres put them on the rear and put the rear on the front.

[hanra]

Ive just bought new tyres and I cant trust anyone around here to perform any work on the car. 2500 klm in 10 years. Prob easier to just leave the alignment as is and replace tyres every 10 years. 

[claysummers]

It’s not that hard to do it yourself. Other thing that can be done is swap the tyres around on the rim, and run an extra few psi.


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[hanra]

These worn tyres are 2011 MFG date. So they will just go in the bin. 

Edited by hanra, 27 October 2023 - 10:55 AM.

[Uncle Chop Chop]

One of the problems is, I used to be able to check my car at a few different stores with identical machines ( I worked casual at several different stores ) and would see slightly different toe readings between machines. That was simple fact 20 years ago, it may or may not be different now.

 

The first thing to remember with an LH front end, is generally they ran a bit of negative castor. This causes the outside edge of the front tyres to roll under during cornering. The taller the profile, the more the tyres will roll under, due to sidewall flex. So the 60 profile tyres you now have will roll under less than the 70 profile tyres you used to have. Having said that, because you now have a wider tyre on the same size rim, that can cause the tyre to walk around on the rim more. Which can give the same end result. 

 

On my 173 LX 4 door (which was totalled by a Mack 22 years ago) It had the stock front end. Maybe RTS, maybe not. I ran 225/50R15 Dunlop W10 on the front on 6" wide rims. Not an ideal combination, but finding a wider wheel wasn't the priority. I set it up with the following settings:

Castor: + 0.5 degrees

Camber: - 4.5 degrees <--- THIS IS NOT A TYPO

Toe in: 2.5 mm total toe in. 

 

I pushed it hard through corners, which it why I set it up that way. The tyres wore fairly even, until the shockers got worn. Then they started to scallop a bit. Even with that amount of negative camber, I could still feel the front understeer (at parking speeds) when I applied full lock. If I backed off a quarter turn of steering, the understeer would go. Not only could I feel it, I could also hear it with the radio off.

 

In short, the front end may be within factory specs and just scrubbing the tyres a bit due to GMH design.

 

 

[claysummers]

What sort of difference chop? I would have though more caster and toe in. I can get about +/- 1.5mm using a tape and rolling the car a half rotation, no better. Easy to sanity check by eye as well just lining up the sidewalls.

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[RallyRed]

You guys mean Castor? or Camber?...in my little world -
Camber - + makes them tip in better when cornering. Too much and inside of tyres wear, too little ( -ve) and outside of tyres wear.
Caster - ( laying back of UCA versus LCA), too much and steering heavy as buggery but may assist in handling, too little and steering doesn't centre by itself as easily.
Like I said, just my understanding.

[claysummers]

That's correct

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[claysummers]

4 or 5 degrees negative camber seems to give me even tyre wear when engaging in a reasonable amount of had cornering. Positive caster is good for centring and steady handling at speed, but a bugger for parking. Power steering you go more positive caster because parking is less of an issue.

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[axistr]

Brad the major problem with the tyre wear on your car can only be excessive toe in. You generally can't get enough positive camber on Torana front ends with all the shims removed to wear the outsides tyres like the ones you have shown. Toe in would be overriding any other wheel alignment settings. 

 

Don't listen to people telling you that it needs heaps of negative camber, that stuff is only for track work where every corner is attacked at maximum cornering speed. For street use as you have described than I would aim for 1/2 deg neg camber left and 1/4 neg to zero on the right.

 

Caster, only run positive caster, 3/4 pos to 1deg pos is a good compromise even it it's a fraction heavier at parking speeds, it will give better stability, increase road feel and camber change. Car steering will still return to centre even with zero caster due to king pin inclination.  When I set toe on an alignment machine I push out on the insides of both front tyres with both hands with about 5kg of pressure and set the toe to zero. When you remove your hands the toe will probably read between 2-4mm total toe in. By doing this procedure of hand pressure on the tyres you are simulating the drag on the tyres going down the road. It's also removing any slack in the front steering components, its a more tru setting simulating your car driven down the road. 

 

If its going to a wheel alignment shop then make sure they check the (rear) drive thrust angle. I always fix the thrust angle if its out, but if they are not prepared to adjust this then tuning the caster setting up front may need to be set different to offset rear thrust angle. 

 

If I'm setting toe in at home I start by placing paint pen marks on the front of both tyre treads at even heights off the ground, generally this height is the measurement of your wheel bearing grease cap. Get help from the Mrs to hold a tape on the mark at one side while you get the measurement on the other. Pull the car in the forward direction till the pen marks are at the rear and at the same height as the front off the ground and measure again the distance between the paint marks. Adjust the toe, I generally aim for 1-2mm less toe reading when measured across the front. every time you adjust the toe you need to only pull the car in the forward direction. If you push the car backwards a measure the reading will be false and read excessive toe in.

 

Hope that helps.        

[Ice]

Listen to this guy he knows what he is talking about ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

[hanra]

Brad the major problem with the tyre wear on your car can only be excessive toe in. You generally can't get enough positive camber on Torana front ends with all the shims removed to wear the outsides tyres like the ones you have shown. Toe in would be overriding any other wheel alignment settings.

Don't listen to people telling you that it needs heaps of negative camber, that stuff is only for track work where every corner is attacked at maximum cornering speed. For street use as you have described than I would aim for 1/2 deg neg camber left and 1/4 neg to zero on the right.

Caster, only run positive caster, 3/4 pos to 1deg pos is a good compromise even it it's a fraction heavier at parking speeds, it will give better stability, increase road feel and camber change. Car steering will still return to centre even with zero caster due to king pin inclination. When I set toe on an alignment machine I push out on the insides of both front tyres with both hands with about 5kg of pressure and set the toe to zero. When you remove your hands the toe will probably read between 2-4mm total toe in. By doing this procedure of hand pressure on the tyres you are simulating the drag on the tyres going down the road. It's also removing any slack in the front steering components, its a more tru setting simulating your car driven down the road.

If its going to a wheel alignment shop then make sure they check the (rear) drive thrust angle. I always fix the thrust angle if its out, but if they are not prepared to adjust this then tuning the caster setting up front may need to be set different to offset rear thrust angle.

If I'm setting toe in at home I start by placing paint pen marks on the front of both tyre treads at even heights off the ground, generally this height is the measurement of your wheel bearing grease cap. Get help from the Mrs to hold a tape on the mark at one side while you get the measurement on the other. Pull the car in the forward direction till the pen marks are at the rear and at the same height as the front off the ground and measure again the distance between the paint marks. Adjust the toe, I generally aim for 1-2mm less toe reading when measured across the front. every time you adjust the toe you need to only pull the car in the forward direction. If you push the car backwards a measure the reading will be false and read excessive toe in.

Hope that helps.

Wow. Huge help!!

[Rockoz]

We used to do toe in measurements and adjustments by using a screw driver to mark the tyre while you rotate them.

It gives an even reference line around the circumference of the tyre.

Drop the car back down and give it a few good pushes downward to normalise the suspension.

Tape measure across the lines front and rear and adjust the steering as required.

Usually jacked it back up for the adjustments, then rinse and repeat until the desired measurements were met.

Didnt have access to any fancy equipment back in those days.

Tape measure and magnetic mount levels was all we used.

I was only a helper, but the old guys had few complaints with there work.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[arrimar]

String lines, squares and straight edges will get you close for an at home job Brad.

Attached Files

•  Resized_20200718_103006.jpeg   294.13K   2 downloads

[hanra]

Brad the major problem with the tyre wear on your car can only be excessive toe in. You generally can't get enough positive camber on Torana front ends with all the shims removed to wear the outsides tyres like the ones you have shown. Toe in would be overriding any other wheel alignment settings.

Don't listen to people telling you that it needs heaps of negative camber, that stuff is only for track work where every corner is attacked at maximum cornering speed. For street use as you have described than I would aim for 1/2 deg neg camber left and 1/4 neg to zero on the right.

Caster, only run positive caster, 3/4 pos to 1deg pos is a good compromise even it it's a fraction heavier at parking speeds, it will give better stability, increase road feel and camber change. Car steering will still return to centre even with zero caster due to king pin inclination. When I set toe on an alignment machine I push out on the insides of both front tyres with both hands with about 5kg of pressure and set the toe to zero. When you remove your hands the toe will probably read between 2-4mm total toe in. By doing this procedure of hand pressure on the tyres you are simulating the drag on the tyres going down the road. It's also removing any slack in the front steering components, its a more tru setting simulating your car driven down the road.

If its going to a wheel alignment shop then make sure they check the (rear) drive thrust angle. I always fix the thrust angle if its out, but if they are not prepared to adjust this then tuning the caster setting up front may need to be set different to offset rear thrust angle.

If I'm setting toe in at home I start by placing paint pen marks on the front of both tyre treads at even heights off the ground, generally this height is the measurement of your wheel bearing grease cap. Get help from the Mrs to hold a tape on the mark at one side while you get the measurement on the other. Pull the car in the forward direction till the pen marks are at the rear and at the same height as the front off the ground and measure again the distance between the paint marks. Adjust the toe, I generally aim for 1-2mm less toe reading when measured across the front. every time you adjust the toe you need to only pull the car in the forward direction. If you push the car backwards a measure the reading will be false and read excessive toe in.

Hope that helps.

Just thinking more about this method of paint marker on the tread.

How will I know which tie rod should be adjusted? Left or right?

[RallyRed]

Make sure the steering wheel is 100% straight ahead, and then adjust the one/both side to make the wheels be where you want them to sit ( regarding toe).

As for which way you turn the thread, I always get that wrong first go, so no comment from me......

[73SUNBURSTEXYOUWON]

Some images from my Gregorys manual. Hopefully of some assistance.

Cheers

Jaso

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•  received_345974274545687.jpeg   133.11K   4 downloads

[RallyRed]

Lol...if anyones tyres look like the above, best to just throw them out..as they must be 40? y.o.

Edited by RallyRed, 29 October 2023 - 06:48 PM.

[yel327]

Try 60 years!