32 replies to this topic

[Bruiser]

As much as I love to piss and moan like we all do about how crappy service can be these days,
I believe when you receive good service the word should be spread just as much.

I put a fairly big custom crow cam in my engine around March ‘23 and spent a fun year and a bit tuning and getting to know my new engine combo. It’s a fair whack of money for cam lifters and springs.
Had to pull motor out due to massive rear main seal leak. Bearings needed doing as well, and a hone too.
Whole motor in bits.
Found that my lovely new cam had started to eat its lifters, and the wear marks on the cam itself looked iffy.
Needed advice, but couldn’t contact the builder who supplied it by phone, or even email. Too busy.
Had springs tested, and gathered up all other relevant info I could think of to be prepared,
and rang Crow direct myself, expecting to be told that the oil was wrong or I ran it in wrong, you know,
the usual “someone else to blame” shit a lot of places will give you
They put me straight through to Lindsay, the general manager who must handle these problems.

He gave me plenty of his time, and after a decent yak, we decided it was best if I sent the cam and lifters to him
for a looksee.

A few of those lifters were fairly pitted, one particularly badly, all inlet lobes - which had higher lift mostly, but some exhaust ones too. Cam was shiny right across the nose on all but 2 lobes. No lifters showed signs of not rotating, at least

When he contacted me, probably after 3 days after it arrived there, we had another good jabber
But the thing that really struck me was his open attitude regarding the cause.
We went through my run in procedure, the spring pressure, the mileage and use of the engine,
the excessive idling issue and finally, the oil used.
He’s a good guy
We didn’t bullshit each other, he said everything I did was right, but I couldn’t tell him with any certainty it hadn’t idled too long
Setting your tappets and tuning your carby can’t be too much, surely?
He didn’t try to blame his cam blank or lifter suppliers, or even imply I had screwed up at all.
Acknowledged the spring pressures I gave him were good, my running in procedure was fine, too.
He did suggest the oil I was using might be an issue, though.
Said he had seen a few failures of late with this oil, not enough to be absolute proof, just a bit of a pattern forming
No arrogant finger pointing blame here, either.
Enough to suggest I use something else, though.
Not my place to name the brand, I guess, it is his perogative to contact them to help solve the problem as much as I want to say

The cam itself only had a few thou of wear here and there by his checking, similar to what I had measured in the shed with my cheap digital calipers. Lifters were shagged, though.

In the end, he suggested we could give it a lick and go again with different oil. Sent me a quote for the regrind, lifters and a bottle of crow zinc additive
Said he would look after me, even though it may or may not have been or probably wasn’t but possibly may have been crow’s responsibility and…
Only quoted me $110 for the regrind

It’s grand to come across someone representing a company who looks after a customer In such a way these days
That’s bloody good and I would recommend dealing with those guys 110%
If he was here buy him beers till he fell over

[N/A-PWR]

Great lot of information there Bruce,

 Got to say, it is a breath of fresh air to have good people still around.

Cheers to getting the beast back up and running.

[claysummers]

Good result bruce. When I got the new cam for my 179 from Jonny Marshall he also supplied on request lifters, which he surfaced as well. Lifters seem to be fraught these days.


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[yel327]

I can second you on their service Bruce. I dropped in and bought some of their stainless roller rockers and they showed me a fair bit. They specced up a custom cam grind for me as well but that has to change now as I have changed direction with heads (were 58cc chamber  alloy SBC now 64cc chamber alloy Trickflow fuelies).

[lemonaro]

I can understand you don't want to name the oil brand that might have caused the problem but could you name the oil brand and type you will use  next time? Save someone else possibly having the same issue.

Glad you had a good outcome.

[N/A-PWR]

We know Zinc helps with protecting engine parts from wearing,

 but what happens when we have too much Zinc?

 

https://youtu.be/erxjPicpYyw

Edited by N/A-PWR, 26 December 2024 - 02:30 PM.

[Bruiser]

Heh heh, not enough zinc, too much zinc
- phosphor, boron, moly
Detergents in oil working against zinc
What a minefield it all is for everyone involved, the oil makers,
the cam blank and lifter factories, the cam companies and poor us at
the end of the rope trying to wade through all the promises in the adverts

Lemonaro, I sure do want to let everyone know the brand of oil but I don’t
think Lindsay would appreciate being dropped in it too much
I can’t recall which he suggested to use, I figured next time we speak I would check then.
I am naturally a bit nervy about using the same grind and it happening again, so I plan to
follow every bit of his advice, use the crow additive and the whole bit.
Will shoot you a pm

[claysummers]

Did they say to bed in with soft/stock spring pressures Bruce?


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[Bruiser]

Yeah Clay, that’s the Crow idea of doing things, no different to anyone else in that way
Had mine measured some weeks ago. Chunky double springs 125 lb seat pressure
310lb @ .550” lift.
Ran it in with the inner removed, outer measured at 90lb seat on its own.
Drove it around for some time like that, keeping the revs below 3500ish was hard.
Lindsay approved of that number and method

I’ve since read up and seen many recommendations of that kind of seat pressure
-(even a bit more, actually) for running things in

[Bruiser]

Lemonaro
I will report back here with oil recommendations soon, they have shut down till jan 8th for chrissie
so I won’t know till then.
Need to give him the go ahead to do the cam then too, so plenty of time to get things sorted.
Seriously considering having lifter bores grooved as well
Really not keen to fork out bickies for a third time

[Rockoz]

Lemonaro
I will report back here with oil recommendations soon, they have shut down till jan 8th for chrissie
so I won’t know till then.
Need to give him the go ahead to do the cam then too, so plenty of time to get things sorted.
Seriously considering having lifter bores grooved as well
Really not keen to fork out bickies for a third time

 

 

Pretty sure it was an article I read about Bob Morris and the Ron Hodgson team A9Xs many years ago.

Amongst other mods to the engine, they ground a 10 thou flat on the lifters to allow better oil supply to the cam.

There was a slight reduction in oil pressure, but cam longevity was increased.

The cams back in those days were very prone to wear.

My mates garage has a heap of 253/308 cams that had been replaced when relatively new.

From memory, they were mostly on No7 lobes.

We came up with a theory back then that it had to do with low oil supply to the lobes.

Most of the engines with problems had seen a lot of idling.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Bruiser]

Thanks Rob
I agree with your theory about oil supply
It’s a pity there isn’t a direct lobe oil feed setup of some sort
You can buy lifters with a flat already machined on them
Crower “cam saver” the name says it all
Heard of people filing them diy
I don’t much like the idea of the lifter putting oil on the right spot of the lobe
for maybe less than a third of its rotation only, although any extra is a bonus
Who am I to argue with those guys’ ingenious old school fixes, though
And if it did help, well there it is
I did ask about the idea of edm lifters, and was told the holes can bung up with muck over time.
Have also read this opinion floated around elsewhere
Those holes range from .012” to .025” dead centre of lifter, and some offset
The grooved bore option would jet a bit of oil right onto the flank of the lobe approaching the lifter,
the whole time. This seems the best idea to me
All at the cost of a bit of oil pressure, though
Maybe a job for an evil high volume pump

Now where did I put that set of jeweller’s files?..

[claysummers]

Roller lifters are another option. As with everything there is a bit of mucking around involved.


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[Bruiser]

True Clay
Expensive, too

[RallyRed]

Roller lifters solve one problem, and create another...i.e. deal with steep ramp rates and high lift, but the failed rollers and pins falling out can get messy.

[jpxu1]

I had an issue with the cam in my Oldsmobile last year deemed to be caused by lack of oil. Took a couple of (expensive) goes to get it fixed, but all seems good (touch wood) now. In the end I put in a new flat tappet cam (with decent lift - it's a mildly worked up from 'standard' big block 442) and converted to roller rockers. I took advice from Clive @ Clive Cams before he retired and he refaced the new lifters and also machined in the flat oil way. Didn't notice any drop in oil pressure on the gauge from that. His comment was "all the lifters made these days are crap with minimal hardening, and don't trust they've been faced properly because heaps I've dealt with aren't."

It is a Comp cam and their recommendation was to use their additive and only outer valve springs when running in.

[claysummers]

No cam run in. Full synthetic oil.


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[Ice]

Cam and lobe questions time  So back in 1990 i bought this mild cam for my 308 engine no idea on brand 

ran it-in for 5000 km then replaced with some stupid stage 4 Heatseeker cam 

It was a great cam if you wanted to take your car to the salt lakes 

 

Can i reuse this mild cam in the same engine when time comes for a rebuild  with some brand new Crow lifters 

the cam has been wrapped up in its original wax paper and box  every now  and then i give it a of  quirt oil 

it has some light surface rust would a linish  or polish get the cam up to spec ,the lobes are still like brand new 

you guys got me thinking about lobe wear though now 

or buy a brand new cam and lifter package 

 

Is it true the older cams were made with better steel then the new ones of today 

 

Sorry about the thread steal Bruce 

[N/A-PWR]

Can i reuse this mild cam in the same engine.

 

Sorry about the thread steal Bruce 

 

Sure can if lobes etc are good.

Use a micrometer to measure all the rotating surfaces for being equal to the others on the camshaft.

[rexy]

When I had the BBC rebuilt by Dandy engines they expressed their dislike of hydraulic roller cams (as did Powerhouse). They recommended a solid lifter cam and reface all the lifters they install. They also recommend using a bottle of can run in every oil change. So far so good.

 

I also have a medium sized solid in the holden 383 in the yellow LJ. Its now 20+ years old with no issues despite maintenance consisting of regular oil changes and not much else.

 

On the issue of oils I rang Penrite a few years ago and they were happy to say the full synthetic high zinc racing oils they make are fine for flat tappet cams. I have used them since without issue.

[Bruiser]

No sorrys needed, steal your heads off, it’s great to get any opinions or info to discuss

Jpxu1 - does you mean Clive ground a single flat down the sides of your lifters?

I have since discovered crower offer dual grooved cam savers, with the added note
*high volume oil pump required

I can’t get my head around the opinions on roller cams though
Many reports of needle roller bearings not lasting too long.
But I think most new pushrod factory engines use them ok? Less cam, I suppose

Gene-o
I started obsessing over my cam lobe wear patterns and googling images of it was albout it
Took it down to a couple of engine shops, still no definite answer
Best I could figure was if the lobe tip is only shiny up one side it “should “ be ok
If in doubt, maybe cam shop with computer gear to check it is the only prover
And I believe they can polish lobes like a they do a crank journal
Me far from smart, take this with a pinch of Merida

[rexy]

Hi Bruce,

 

No doubt the factory hydraulic roller cams will last forever with regular oil changes. The profiles are very gentle though.

 

I have factory hydraulic rollers on my Crane HR 230 in a 383 holden and it’s done nearly 100,000 K without incident. Its only 230/234 @50 thou though.

By comparison the original cam in the BBC in the ute was 274/282 @50 thou and it smashed the best lifters money could buy every 1500-2000 km. 

 

Horses for courses?

[Bruiser]

Must be those horses for courses.
Read plenty of stories of failures after a few thousand k’s like your one
Good to hear it from someone who has been through it

[Bruiser]

Was back on the phone yesterday, not a big list of oil suggestions like I was hoping, was only given these suggestions.
Driven break in oil
ULX-110 from then on
And add the crow branded additive for run in and at least the first oil change, forgot to ask if that’s an ongoing thing
Might phone ulx and ask them about adding stuff to their oil, I think some brands don’t recommend it
Expensive stuff too, they are. Of course I did ask if any of the $60ish oils would do, but the answer was
“In your situation I wouldn’t take any chances” or words to that effect
Might need to back off on my habit of changing the oil too often. Such is life

You guys have got me thinking seriously about the machined flat on the side type lifters now
If Clive did it, and the old race teams of his era did it - that he was probably involved with in those days with Wade
It has to be a good thing, right?
Extra oil for lubricating of course, but could it also have a cooling effect as it does on valve springs?

Can’t find any pictures, but crower offers a dual grooved lifter, I assume 2 flats at 180 degrees apart with those
I reckon the more slots the better, due to the spinning lifter putting oil in the right place more times per rotation.
The reality of the oil pressure loss involved must set a limit to this idea though.
The oil leak of the edm lifter holes at .024” must be ok, or they wouldn’t sell them.

I figure machining two flats a with an equal cross sectional area to that hole would be ok oil pressure wise,
and plop some oil on the right spot on the lobe two times each rotation
Even the other side of the lifter would get some oil cooling, I guess, but how much hot oil would actually be flung off
of a cam lobe spinning at 3000rpm?
I’ve done the maths, and on a .875 ford sized lifter those flats are only 3thou deep
Would be checking maths another 5 times before screwing up new lifters (or whole engine) for sure
I have a few weeks to think about this before the cam arrives, and more time too while I screw the motor back together

Anyone got any other ideas?
Or any idea if my idea is a good idea?
Haha or a shit one

[claysummers]

The other similar additives are just as good and similarly priced. Every oil change recommended.


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